Should I talk to my mother again about forcing my son to kill insects or does that look petty and overbearing?

[Unicant]

I havent had the easiest of relationships with my mother but she is quite ill now and I dont see her often because she lives abroad. I try not to rock the boat. We usually see each other twice a year, Christmas and summer holiday. I am their only child and my two children their only grandchildren.
My son is nearly 6 and I've always brought him up to be kind to animals and plants. We are vegetarian and my parents aren't.. which is fine.. and when they look after the grandchildren I dont mind what they cook etc
I also do not mind if my mother kills insects herself. She is allergic to insect bites and gets swollen lumps from them.
However last summer when we saw them I came across her teasing my son trying to get him to swat a fly... I just said 'oh dont wind him up like that' good naturedly and she stopped and I thought that was it.

But recently we were discussing maybe going over there in August if we are allowed to this year.... and my son looked worried.
After a time he started asking me why grandma kills insects, and I told him she's allergic to their bites etc
But it transpired she had been forcing him to kill insects on quite a few occasions and he has anxiously been thinking about it all this time. He seemed quite upset. He was saying I dont want to kill insects its wrong. I got the impression she was kind of bullying him into it. He said she made him squash a ladybird on the garden table...

Now I know this seems like a really petty issue but its just the fact that he's had this in his mind all year and it seems to be something worrying him.. im not sure how to handle it without looking disrespectful to my mother and causing an argument or bad feeling... our relationship is delicate anyway
But I feel very guilty about my son having to go through that when its obviously effecting him.
Should I try and speak to her about it or is that ridiculous?
Shes not the type of person who really takes on board any type of perceived criticism... both my parents think im oversensitive.. they have quite old school ideas they dont talk in emotional terms really and are set in their ways and respond negatively to any challenge to that (for example they chain smoke in the car even when they have my son in the car despite telling me they wouldn't just to placate me, but my son mentioned that they do it anyway)
So I'm at a loss as to how to make this better... how much do you put up with to keep a relationship stable and have grandparents in grandchildren lives?
I love them and I know they love my children... but I also don't want my son to be emotionally invalidated and essentially bullied
And we dont see them that often to be fair...

YABU ignore it you are overreacting
YANBU you have to try and do something about it

@EvilPea that's what my lovely little 7 year old girl does for them. She makes them houses and puts leaves etc in for them.

My DM was like that. I said I would squash her as she had no more right to life than any of gods creatures. It didn’t go down well.

I don’t think you are over reacting at all.

Whether you agree with killing insects it not isn't the point in this situation for me (I don't btw but it sounds like she sees it as one of life's necessities and thinks it would be best if your Ds learnt to get on with it), but it's a parenting style thing isn't it. Bullying a child into doing 'the right thing' whatever you think that is, is a crap way to influence whether a young person follows your teachings or not.
My mil is similar and I limit how much time she has alone with the children, I give them the language to express why they are uncomfortable with her approach, so they can understand what is going on. So something like 'Nana could ask you to help clear the table nicely but she chooses to make you feel guilty instead which isn't a nice feeling is it' or 'if Nana explained why that mattered I'm sure you would want to do that, she didn't need to remind you she could take away your toy, that's what a bully would do isn't it'
So, that way the child sees it for what it is. They don't internalise the problem as coming from them, so it has a protective effect. Also once you have identified why her approach (, bullying) is unpleasant for him you could give him some coping strategies, such as saying to her, I know insects are a problem for you but this one doesn't need to die, let's read this story instead... (Our something else you think he could manage and might work) or at least give him a way to try to say no that he has confidence is at least a polite way of declining so he doesn't feel he is making her angry. You could even tell him that if she does get angry with him it isn't his fault.
My dd had a situation with my mil which was awful and a combination of reducing her being alone with her, helping her understand what made her Nana tick and ways she could respond don't do it happening altogether necessarily but make it less distressing and confusing.

It's interesting she calls you sensitive whereas she sounds really sensitive herself. If someone acts out in anger or being really defensive they're not sensitive whereas if someone is hurt and expresses it that makes them sensitive - It doesn't make any sense.

I think forcing a young boy to kill insects is just strange. It'd be obvious to see he was uncomfortable and yet she continued.

Also it's really not normal for children or boys specifically to kill insects. If I saw a boy pulling the wings off a fly or crushing insects for fun I'd be a bit concerned that things could escalate. Killing living things in childhood for fun can be a sign of later criminal behaviour.

[quote Unicant]@FictionalCharacter
'Doing what she wants wont make her happy anyway'

You know that is absolutely spot on.
I think I always harbour some ridiculous childish hope that there will be some way I could behave or something I could say that will be the key to sorting it out. That suddenly we will turn a corner.
Not going to happen is it.
I just need to stand up for my son and forget about trying to improve my relationship with her. And also stop thinking I can help her.
Basically I need to stop worriyng about how she feels and feeling it like its me feeling those things. Her reaction isn't my responsibility but my son is.[/quote]
Exactly. You can't help her, but you can help yourself and your family by not getting sucked in to her distorted world. And it's healthy for your son to understand that you are his authority figure, not her, and that it's OK to not let adults force you to do things that are considered wrong or upsetting in your family.

I remember when I was really young some of my earliest memories.. accidentally killing woodlice and worms when trying to play with them. And it being really quite traumatic so that I still have those memories of feeling really sad about it.
So I absolutely understand why my son mightve been thinking about that ladybird all year. I feel really sorry for him.

@RealisticSketch
The issue is how do I do that without my son judging my parents negatively and straining his relationship with them?
Then there's also a part of me that is very afraid that actually perhaps he shoukd judge them negatively...

YANBU OP - You are right to be concerned about your mother’s behaviour. Encouraging your DC to kill insects and smoking in the car with them is not on. You realise this is most probably a carbon copy of the horrible behaviour you experienced as a child. The difference here is that you are your DC’s advocate and protector and you need to be the one to stop this. It is also likely that she will only get worse as the DC’s get older which is a very worrying thought.

I think you have to either tell her that she must not do these things and that you are the parent, it is your decision. Be there the whole time when your DC’s are in her company and if she does anything like this again pick her up on it every time. If you can’t do this then I don’t see any other option than to go NC. Either way it won’t be easy but your DC’s and also your MH come first.

@bluebluezoo

I'd say killing insects is the norm for a 6 year old boy, he seems very sensitive

You’re one of those who smiles indulgently saying “boys will be boys” while they fight and try to hurt or damage things, aren’t you?

It is not the norm and mine would get a severe telling off if they purposely went round killing anything.

Totally that sort of parent! I've got 3 boys and none of them would ever kill anything deliberately.

Mosquitos/tsetse fly/other biting, disease spreading insects - yes I'd squash if I could get hold of them. They want to harm me - I use self-defence.

Same with Virus/bacteria (to the numpty who asked ) - there are beneficial bacteria, so they are fine. Any that want to harm me - get nuked.

OP - I get that you are scared of your 'D'M, but you are the grown-up. If you can't do it, how can your poor child?

@RedHelenB

I'd say killing insects is the norm for a 6 year old boy, he seems very sensitive.

This is ludicrous stereotyping. It isn't "sensitive" for a small child not to want to kill anything, ffs.

Your ds already knows granny really isn't very nice...

@FictionalCharacter
Thankyou you are right.
Its hard to teach what you weren't ever taught yourself. I have a horror of not loving people im supposed to love regardless of what they do to me.
I do need to teach my son that he doesnt need to automatically respect anyone if it goes against his own values or their behaviour is making him uncomfortable.
I'm going to speak to him before/if we go this year about how he can say no if he wants to and I will support him.

@RedHelenB

I'd say killing insects is the norm for a 6 year old boy, he seems very sensitive.

This is disgusting and absolutely not true in my experience

she made him squash a ladybird on the garden table

That is some sick mind fuckery right there. If she didn't respect my beliefs and what I was teaching my children, I would make it clear that I would not be taking them near her should she engage in this stupidity again. Period.

I think you can teach your son that people have good and bad things about them and you can tell him “I don’t like the way she kills insects and wants you to do it” / I don’t think that is undermining his relationship with her.
I’d have absolutely hated being made to kill insects as a child (and as an adult I couldn’t do it for no reason!) , it would’ve desperately upset me seeing a living thing get hurt. Once I accidentally squashed a bug when I was around five and it haunted me for two weeks at least! Even if that is sensitive - so what? What’s wrong with that - sensitivity is often associated with creativity and other lovely qualities and anyway I don’t think you have to be very sensitive to be against killing insects.

Killing a ladybird is hideous - making a child do it is awful . Unnecessarily killing insects is damaging the environment ... your Mother needs educating

@RedHelenB it's not the norm for boys, or girls for that matter, to kill insects.

My 5 year old loves animals so much he didn't want to take Vermox to get rid of the threadworms he had.

OP I agree with the poster who says you cannot change your mother, but you can empower your DS to tackle her.

[quote Unicant]@RealisticSketch
The issue is how do I do that without my son judging my parents negatively and straining his relationship with them?
Then there's also a part of me that is very afraid that actually perhaps he shoukd judge them negatively...[/quote]
Just be matter of fact about the truth. You don't need to exaggerate or call her a bad person. You can just specifically give him the language to frame his experience of that moment. Children are more accepting of the mix that comes with people. If you aren't telling him to dislike her as a whole person but are allowing him to internally reject that moment by being able to put it in context without turmoil you are protecting him by helping him see the truth and knowing that part of granny isn't the bit he likes. It is more of a strain to an honest relationship to find you both dislike and like granny but can't put your finger on why. If you equip him with clear vision on what is happening, he will be able to have whatever relationship her behaviour and his feelings around her behaviour allows him to have. The rest is up to her not you.

@RedHelenB

I'd say killing insects is the norm for a 6 year old boy, he seems very sensitive.

Its certainly not normal for properly raised children without mental/behavioral issues

@RedHelenB

I'd say killing insects is the norm for a 6 year old boy, he seems very sensitive.

Not normal at all

"I think I always harbour some ridiculous childish hope that there will be some way I could behave or something I could say that will be the key to sorting it out. That suddenly we will turn a corner.
Not going to happen is it.
I just need to stand up for my son and forget about trying to improve my relationship with her. And also stop thinking I can help her.
Basically I need to stop worriyng about how she feels and feeling it like its me feeling those things. Her reaction isn't my responsibility but my son is".

Correct on all counts there unicant. You cannot heal your mother's pain and its not your job to do so for her either.

Have a look too at the current March 2021 well we took you to Stately Homes thread on the Relationships pages of this site. It may be an idea also for you to read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward.

If your parents are too toxic/batshit or otherwise too difficult for YOU to deal with, its the SAME deal for your child too. Keep yourselves well away from your parents going forward and deal with any and all feelings of FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) through therapy.

Sounds to me like you and your son and other child could do with some assertiveness training. I’m sure there’ll be some children’s books on this subject on amazon that you would all benefit from.
It’s very hard to be assertive if your parents didn’t respect you as a child, if you had to do as you were told no matter what, if you had to love people who were abusive, it doesn’t set you up to know that boundaries are a thing. You need to know the right responses , to be able to easily trot them out, like the great one on MN: ‘that doesn’t work for me.’ I used that for the first time a couple of weeks ago and the sky didn’t fall in! The other person accepted it, suggested something else and we all moved on. I’d been stressing for days!
I was brought up to do as I was told and to be afraid of his displeasure. As you can imagine it didn’t really set me up for healthy relationships at home or at work.

I'd say killing insects is the norm for a 6 year old boy, he seems very sensitive.

Not the norm and you seem particularly insensitive.

"This is what I don’t get. A mosquito has its place in the food chain as much as a ladybird. Why does one deserve to live and one not?"

Because I'm lower down the food chain than mosquitoes according to the vicious little bastards.

Ladybirds don't try to eat me

I wouldn't stop my kid swatting a fly (I'd do it, so it's hypocritical to stop them) but I'd never, ever make them do it. Unless it was one of the massive hornets we had in the house last year because I'm too scared to get near enough to swat them.