Page 13 | To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

Dozer · 02/03/2021 20:26

In UK state schools we primarily have admission by ability to pay for nearby housing, or (for selective secondary schools) ability to provide or pay for extra tuition. At least so with CofE schools anyone willing to turn up to church for a while - still a time/cost commitment but less so than paying for housing or providing/paying for tuition - may get in!

Trickier hoops for catholic schools but potentially do-able for people with few options.

turquoisewaters · 02/03/2021 20:28

but it really isn't an argument to what is most fair for children who've no say in this

I don't understand why some think it's ok to dissociate the values children will be educated in with their family's values

turquoisewaters · 02/03/2021 20:29

if only the cheats would stop cheating

I agree, cheats should stop cheating

thirdfiddle · 02/03/2021 20:30

Where the religious school is good, it's full of religious people, noone else gets a look in.
Where it's bad, religious people choose other schools if they can and non religious or other religion families get forced to put their kids into religious environments against their will.

Effectively this means religious people get better state education than everyone else - because they have the same choices as everyone else plus extra priority for some which they'll only use if it's good. I don't see how that can be justified really. Can't blame anyone who decides to acquire religion for the relevant period, though I wouldn't myself as I wouldn't want my kids in a religious school.

Dozer · 02/03/2021 20:31

It’s not ‘cheating’ to meet the specified admissions criteria (baptism, church attendance etc).

MargosKaftan · 02/03/2021 20:35

I believe the Blair government looked into buying the land off churches that schools sat on, and came to the conclusion back then it wasn't worth it financially just to have a bit more control over what happened in the schools. Many aren't owned outright by the churches as well - one of the faith primaries in our town the land and money was left in a trust to be used to educate the children of the church - but if it was to stop being used for this, the ownership of the land and money in trust would revert to the decendents of the original owner - the church cant sell it or gift it to the state and can't use the land for anything else.

But the problem isn't the faith schools, its the lack of other school places in many towns.

If there are 500 children in a year group the council should provide 500 places in state non-faith schools. If 20 go private or another 60 go to faith schools, so be it, but there should be options and all state schools should be providing a good education.

Hippee · 02/03/2021 20:39

We live near 2 faith schools and the traffic that they cause is horrendous. DS1 got one of the 10 "community places" through proximity to the school. Friend's DS has to walk past school for another 50 minutes to his school as he was not in the nearest 10.

Piglet89 · 02/03/2021 21:08

@Dozer

It’s not ‘cheating’ to meet the specified admissions criteria (baptism, church attendance etc).

Surely it is if you don’t actually even believe in God like some people I know who have started attending Church just so they can meet the criteria to send their kid to the local faith school? It’s completely farcical.

Foxhasbigsocks · 02/03/2021 21:11

I would prefer state faith schools to be abolished.

Blackberrycream · 02/03/2021 21:11

@Elsia

I simply don’t understand how it’s allowed. Can’t tell you about England but in Scotland I know teachers who have been rejected from jobs in Catholic schools because they aren’t practicing Catholics. Can someone please explain to me how on Earth this is allowed?!

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. Diocese policy is to hire the best person for the job. Their responsibility is to provide the best possible education for the children in their care. If there are two equally qualified candidates, the Catholic candidate will be hired. I was hired from a shortlist of 4. There were Catholic candidates shortlisted. I’m not Catholic. I was also supported in professional development and encouraged into leadership roles. If they weren’t hired, they were not the best candidate.

DietrichandDiMaggio · 02/03/2021 21:12

[quote Wondermule]@DietrichandDiMaggio

Well they would be wouldn’t they? Horrific for social mobility and encouraging postcode cheating?[/quote]
But you haven't said why they will be better; how are you quantifying how good a school is?

SpringisSpinning · 02/03/2021 21:20

My school went to faith school and to begin with I was a half practising and did feel the morals, kindness that's taught were what I want Ed for dc.
Unfortunately, it's turned out to be a rather unpleasant place and politically extreme rather than religious. The funny thing is both dc came out with a really strong aversion to religion, both have said God didn't create the world, it was a big bang.. Both have said they don't want to be religious.

I must admit now in freed from its shackles I do feel its a massive indoctrination process backed up from home.

DietrichandDiMaggio · 02/03/2021 21:26

@thirdfiddle

Where the religious school is good, it's full of religious people, noone else gets a look in. Where it's bad, religious people choose other schools if they can and non religious or other religion families get forced to put their kids into religious environments against their will.

Effectively this means religious people get better state education than everyone else - because they have the same choices as everyone else plus extra priority for some which they'll only use if it's good. I don't see how that can be justified really. Can't blame anyone who decides to acquire religion for the relevant period, though I wouldn't myself as I wouldn't want my kids in a religious school.

Yes, it's amazing how many families I know who sent their children to Catholic primary schools in nice parts of the city, but suddenly religion wasn't that important when it came to secondary, and the only Catholic secondary was shit, and in a rougher area. If all those nice, middle-class families had sent their kids there, maybe it would have been 'better'.

Blackberrycream · 02/03/2021 21:31

@turquoisewaters
You are right that part of the success is down to strong relationships with parents. In inner city schools, the parents are generally appreciative and supportive of higher behaviour standards for their children.
I do find it extremely sad that people are so vitriolic about a system they often don’t have experience of. When such a high percentage of the top performing schools in the country are faith schools, surely it would be wise to look at what they are doing effectively rather than push to shut them down. Having worked in both, there is a lot to learn.

JassyRadlett · 02/03/2021 21:38

I don’t think religious segregation of children is a good idea.

I don’t think children should have their only choice of state education being indoctrinated in a particular faith if that’s the school they’re allocated, whether that’s their faith or not.

I don’t think taxpayers’ money should fund religious discrimination.

It’s well established that only faith schools that have a selective intake perform better - similar to other schools that are able to select their intake.

Overall I’m in favour of universal services having a greater degree of universality than a third of schools giving preferential access to kids whose parents pray to the right god.

And before anyone says I don’t understand the system - my kids are at a faith school (not my preference, but that’s a discriminatory system for you.) There was a sudden drop in faith applicants after a bad Ofsted. And much wailing and gnashing of teeth after the ‘good’ Ofsted was published shortly after the school admissions deadline that year. Apparently it wasn’t ‘fair’.

Blackberrycream · 02/03/2021 21:44

@JassyRadlett
Again misinformation.
It is not Catholic schools with ‘ selective intake’ that perform better.
They have a long history of education in inner city areas and perform well in this context.

turquoisewaters · 02/03/2021 21:45

My mums relatives were Catholics and were always handing over money to the church

Why is this a problem? Many donate to causes they strongly believe in (e.g. climate change). Why should the Church be any different?

Original poster

Wondermule · 02/03/2021 22:04

@turquoisewaters

My mums relatives were Catholics and were always handing over money to the church

Why is this a problem? Many donate to causes they strongly believe in (e.g. climate change). Why should the Church be any different?

Because other people don’t like it, whilst simultaneously claiming they’re against the control of people etc. All a bit messy!

OP posts:

Einszwei · 02/03/2021 22:07

I believe religion has absolutely no place in the education of children. I would abolish all faith schools tomorrow if I could.

Original poster

Wondermule · 02/03/2021 22:09

@Einszwei

I believe religion has absolutely no place in the education of children. I would abolish all faith schools tomorrow if I could.

That 👏🏻 isn’t 👏🏻 what 👏🏻 is 👏🏻 being 👏🏻 discussed

OP posts:

Disneymum1993 · 02/03/2021 22:09

My daughters go to a Roman Catholic school they are baptised Christian but Church of Scotland I chose the school as it has the best statistics and outcomes and the teaching is amazing!
I have to provide baptismal certificates for both them and myself then put a placing request in so I think we aren't cheating the entry requirements as we have a faith as such

JassyRadlett · 02/03/2021 22:11

It is not Catholic schools with ‘ selective intake’ that perform better.

They have a long history of education in inner city areas and perform well in this context.

Great! I mean, I was talking about faith schools in general, but great if you can share the details on performance of Catholic schools who don’t use religious selection vs the performance of their notional community intake? These are Catholic schools who don’t give preference to Catholics, yes?

Selection by religious attendance skews the demographics (and performance) intakes just as selection by house prices does.

turquoisewaters · 02/03/2021 22:25

OP I think your topic is very complex and it has so many angles, that the thread keeps on being derailed

Thisisworsethananticpated · 02/03/2021 22:25

I was religious , very very very
I went off religion due to family issues and bereavement
But also fake attending church every Sunday when my heart wasn’t in it was too upsetting
But seeing people merrily fake their way in was unpleasant

It’s a shit system and orients towards the white and middle class

MasterBeth · 02/03/2021 22:35

@Wondermule

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

How about schools for left-handed people and right-handed people?

Or different signs of the Zodiac?