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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask Health care staff treating me if they've had their covid vaccine?

366 replies

BearEastie · 28/02/2021 11:17

I am immunosuppressed. I've been vaccinated but they don't know how well it will work yet.

I would prefer to only be treated by staff who had been vaccinated, thus if they said no I would ask for limited contact or a swap in nursing etc.

Just read shocking statistics from the hospital I am due to go to next month for a two week stay and I am starting to freak out just a little bit.

OP posts:
Padton · 02/03/2021 05:42

You should probably worry more about HCPs who have been vaccinated and think this has somehow reduced the risk they pose to patients as they are the ones who may take a risk with PPE or infection control.

Think it through for a moment - you pose a greater risk to an unvaccinated HCP than you do a vaccinated one, so who is more likely to take a risk with infection control? Hopefully nobody, but I’m just trying to give an alternate view.

Midnightmusing · 02/03/2021 07:46

There are many other ways to contract covid in a hospital besides from someone directly involved in your care. If I was you I would probably be more concerned about whether the cleaners are disinfecting surfaces regularly and thoroughly enough.

If you’re going to be in hospital for any significant amount of time it would be a logistical impossibility for the hospital to assure you that no one you come into contact with is unvaccinated. There are no systems in place to prevent every cleaner, nurse, doctor, radiographer, porter etc who hasn’t been vaccinated from coming into contact with you. Imagine that you become unwell late at night and need an urgent scan, there is one radiographer on duty but they have not been vaccinated. Do you refuse urgent care?

Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 08:21

@LolaSmiles

Belladonna12 Genuine question here, because I'm not a HCP, surely if the risk assessments are done and account for the fact that not everyone can have a vaccine (covid or another) there is a decision made as to whether certain people aren't appropriate to be deployed in a particular way/certain clinics have an occupational requirement because the risk is too high to have someone unvaccinated working there?

How does occupational health balance that for HCP?

There has to be a way that doesn't rely on patients essentially saying 'I want to know if you've had the vaccine and if you won't tell me, I'll assume you haven't and I expect you to change all the staffing around the fact that I don't want to see anyone who hasn't had a vaccine for whatever reason'.

Everyone can have the vaccine though apart from pregnant women. In that situation, they would have to be redeployed if they normally work in the clinic with immunosuppressed patients as being vaccinated is normally a requirement for working there. The difficulty is if someone is immunosuppressed but been treated somewhere where patients aren't normally. In that situation, I don't think there is anything wrong with someone who is immunosuppressed asking to be treated only by people who are vaccinated. They shouldn't have to take a risk. You want to if Covid could easily kill you?
Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 08:22

You want to if Covid could easily kill you? Would you want to if Covid could easily kill you?

Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 08:27

@Padton

I can only add to what at least one other person has said - the vaccine absolutely does not prevent transmission. I know this because I work in a care home with almost 100% vaccinated staff and residents and it still spread like wildfire once it got in.

However, I’m pleased to say it did successfully reduce symptoms and death so, in my experience, you’ve protected yourself by having it. Well done, that’s all you can do.

To suggest people who refuse the vaccine are bad carers, don’t care about PPE/infection control or should be in a different job is just ridiculous. I know there is a lot of fear around Covid but anyone thinking like that needs to get a grip! Yes I’ve had the vaccine myself before anyone starts jumping to conclusions! I had it for my own protection though - because I know it’s of no benefit whatsoever to anyone else at work - unvaccinated people are only affecting themselves, it’s that simple.

The situation in your care home doesn't demonstrate at all that the vaccine doesn't reduce transmission. If anything it demonstrates that PPE isn't very protective. Firstly, a lot of carers aren't even vaccinated so they spreading it around. Secondly, the residents have only had one vaccine and as they are elderly they probably wouldn't have produced a particularly good immune response yet. A youngish healthy NHS worker who has had two vaccines will probably be fully immune and if they don't catch it they probably won't spread it.
guiltynetter · 02/03/2021 08:29

I'm NHS and I wouldn't mind if somebody asked if I had my vaccine... In a friendly, conversation type of way, but if they refused to be treated by me I'd think that was ridiculous. I've worked for a year in FULL PPE and it works. Otherwise why do we wear it.

Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 08:30

@Midnightmusing

There are many other ways to contract covid in a hospital besides from someone directly involved in your care. If I was you I would probably be more concerned about whether the cleaners are disinfecting surfaces regularly and thoroughly enough.

If you’re going to be in hospital for any significant amount of time it would be a logistical impossibility for the hospital to assure you that no one you come into contact with is unvaccinated. There are no systems in place to prevent every cleaner, nurse, doctor, radiographer, porter etc who hasn’t been vaccinated from coming into contact with you. Imagine that you become unwell late at night and need an urgent scan, there is one radiographer on duty but they have not been vaccinated. Do you refuse urgent care?

So you think that because someone can't reduce the risk to zero there is no point trying to reduce it at all? That's ridiculous.
Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 08:31

@guiltynetter

I'm NHS and I wouldn't mind if somebody asked if I had my vaccine... In a friendly, conversation type of way, but if they refused to be treated by me I'd think that was ridiculous. I've worked for a year in FULL PPE and it works. Otherwise why do we wear it.
It reduces the risk but obviously doesn't fully prevent. Otherwise there wouldn't have been so many hospital acquire infections.
CovoidOfAllHumanity · 02/03/2021 08:38

Padton and Lemonswan

The vaccines DO cut transmission from 2 weeks after vaccination according to actual scientific studies. AZ cut transmission by 67% and there's similar data for Pfizer.

I'm sorry you have had an outbreak at your workplace but it doesn't make what you are saying true. There is no evidence at all that a vaccine would extend the incubation period. What it might do is convert a symptomatic infection into an asymptomatic one because that's what reducing severity is.

What is more likely and based on science is that tests are not infallible. One of your residents negative tests was wrong. Not surprising. There is a reasonably high false negative rate even for PCR. Lateral flow tests are very very inaccurate and don't mean much at all. They can detect positives accurately but they give a lot of false negatives. Also barrier nursing and PPE is not infallible. The most likely thing is that a staff member got an asymptomatic infection from an asymptomatic resident in isolation despite PPE and these were not detected on tests and hence it spread.
If you want an explanation that is it.

If yours was the Kent variant and anything less than 100% of your staff and residents got it then the vaccine probably did reduce transmission.

We also had no outbreak on our ward until December. We quarantined the sporadic cases we found, cleaned obsessively and they did not spread. We patted ourselves on the back. We had no access to vaccines then for staff or patients. Unfortunately in Jan when the Kent variant started to sweep through 100% staff and patients were positive within a matter of days from one person despite all our practices being the same. A number of wards in our hospital had the exact same thing happen.

It's the Kent variant that is the game changer and not the vaccine. You should be very glad your staff and residents had been vaccinated as ours had not and yes people died. Which was horrifying after working so hard all year to keep them safe.

Vaccines reduce transmission
PPE reduces transmission
Cleaning, distancing, hand hygiene all reduce transmission
But none of these are a 100% guarantee so we need to do all of them whilst cases are still high.

Haenow · 02/03/2021 10:01

@BearEastie

Your consultant obviously thinks you need this admission. I’m sure they will have balanced the risks to you and they’ll be very aware of the risks unvaccinated staff but despite this, clearly feel the admission is still required. Try to trust their judgement.

BigWoollyJumpers · 02/03/2021 10:46

Dare I say, that I would be disappointed in an healthcare professional deciding to not have the vaccine, other than for health reasons.

How do you think patients should respond to someone treating them, when they themselves are not able to accept scientific and peer reviewed efficacy of a preventative treatment.

LolaSmiles · 02/03/2021 11:20

Everyone can have the vaccine though apart from pregnant women. In that situation, they would have to be redeployed if they normally work in the clinic with immunosuppressed patients as being vaccinated is normally a requirement for working there.
The difficulty is if someone is immunosuppressed but been treated somewhere where patients aren't normally. In that situation, I don't think there is anything wrong with someone who is immunosuppressed asking to be treated only by people who are vaccinated. They shouldn't have to take a risk. You want to if Covid could easily kill you?
Thank you for explaining. I thought certain areas would have particular health/vaccination requirements.
Can I ask why immunosuppresed patients would be treated differently in terms of risk assessments based on which clinic they are in? Surely the risk for immunosuppresed patients is the similar across clinics?
This is really interesting because I'd have thought there was ways to treat those patients in line with a risk assessment without expecting staff to share information that they may/may not want to.

user1471462428 · 02/03/2021 11:42

I’m a former nurse and I hate those sticker. Your ID should be wiped throughly at the end of every shift with a sterile wipe. Just as you wash your uniform you should ensure that the rest of it is hygienic.
I understand your anxiety and I in your place would ring the unit. The only ‘health’ professional I know who has refused the vaccination is a ward clerk.

Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 11:44

@LolaSmiles

Everyone can have the vaccine though apart from pregnant women. In that situation, they would have to be redeployed if they normally work in the clinic with immunosuppressed patients as being vaccinated is normally a requirement for working there. The difficulty is if someone is immunosuppressed but been treated somewhere where patients aren't normally. In that situation, I don't think there is anything wrong with someone who is immunosuppressed asking to be treated only by people who are vaccinated. They shouldn't have to take a risk. You want to if Covid could easily kill you? Thank you for explaining. I thought certain areas would have particular health/vaccination requirements. Can I ask why immunosuppresed patients would be treated differently in terms of risk assessments based on which clinic they are in? Surely the risk for immunosuppresed patients is the similar across clinics? This is really interesting because I'd have thought there was ways to treat those patients in line with a risk assessment without expecting staff to share information that they may/may not want to.
The patients themselves aren't being treated differently. It is the staff that are treated differently in terms of vaccination requirements. As for sharing information regarding vaccination, staff are encouraged to wear stickers showing that they have been vaccinated.
user1471462428 · 02/03/2021 11:53

Oh and I don’t know why you’ve been jumped on so much on this thread, you understandably scared and stressed. Bloody awful time for everyone but especially for the immune compromised.

parallax80 · 02/03/2021 11:56

It isn’t yet mandatory across the NHS for covid vaccination in any units, whoever they treat (though local units may have their own guidelines, as often happens. These can be very inconsistent - for example, one of our haematology wards routinely swab their staff twice a week. However in ICU we don’t currently swab any staff routinely, even those looking after haematology patients).

It may well come, eventually. Some vaccinations are mandatory for particular roles (eg Hep B), others are not (eg Influenza).

Every OH department will have a policy that includes how to manage people who either decline a vaccine, are unable to have a vaccine or are non-responders to vaccine (this can happen with Hep B). There is usually an explicit vaccine refusal form where employees have to sign to say that they waive liability for workplace acquired infections and understand that there will be limits on the roles they are able to work in.

The main reason flu isn’t mandatory is because it varies from year to year and has widely variable effectiveness on response, how likely it is to prevent severe illness and how effective it is on transmission. This affects the ethics of mandating that staff have a vaccine.

High level evidence is still pending on covid vaccination and transmissibility in the real world (small studies so far from Israel), including the specific context of hospitals where the real test is how it reduces transmissibility over and above best infection control precautions (eg FFP3 mask + regular swab + daily lateral flow testing) - rather than with people going about their day to day business / social activities.

FWIW it’s also not clear what the best way of redeploying unvaccinated staff would be - immunosuppression comes in various forms and is not necessarily a marker of how likely someone is to develop severe covid.

In fact the drugs with high level evidence for treating severe covid are all high level immunosuppressants - dexamethasone, methylprednisolone, toculizumab. Cardiovascular comorbidities (diabetes, HTN) seem to be more involved in development of severe disease than anything else (probably due to over-expression of ACE receptor, which is what sars-Cov-2 uses to enter cells).

That doesn’t mean immunosuppressed people shouldn’t be concerned, and shouldn’t be protected. But if it becomes clear that vaccination has additional protection for patients over and above other infection control measures then the risk assessment of what to do with unvaccinated staff needs to include assessment of the relative risk in other areas as well as the potential impact on care of fewer available staff.

On a personal level, I’m incredibly pro-vaccine and have few issues with mandatory vaccinations for particular roles. But I’m sure you can appreciate that the potential implications of imposing this are quite complex and significant, and it is something that needs to be done on an operational / institutional level not by individual patients confronting individual staff members.

Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 12:06

In fact the drugs with high level evidence for treating severe covid are all high level immunosuppressants - dexamethasone, methylprednisolone, toculizumab. Cardiovascular comorbidities (diabetes, HTN) seem to be more involved in development of severe disease than anything else (probably due to over-expression of ACE receptor, which is what sars-Cov-2 uses to enter cells).

True, but in the future immunusuppressed people are likely to be the most vulnerable because they will probably not be able to respond as effectively to vaccines as people who are not immunosuppressed but have diabetes and cardiovascular disease.

parallax80 · 02/03/2021 12:08

As I’ve said above, that is something that needs to be taken into account in developing policies on balancing risks around covid infection prevention.

That doesn’t change my view that that needs to be done on an operational / institutional level not by individual patients confronting individual staff members

Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 12:43

@parallax80

As I’ve said above, that is something that needs to be taken into account in developing policies on balancing risks around covid infection prevention.

That doesn’t change my view that that needs to be done on an operational / institutional level not by individual patients confronting individual staff members

Easy to say if you are not the one who is immunosuppressed and about to be hospitalised for 2 weeks. Things can move quite slowly at an institutional level and while in future those who are immuno suppressed will be able to trust that they are as safe as possible if hospitalised that's not necessarily going to be the case in the immediate future. The huge amount of hospital-acquired Covid infections demonstrates that infection control has not been as good as it should be in some hospitals.
Countrysidebloos · 02/03/2021 12:46

I'm not sure what the point of you asking is though?

if they so "no" do you ask for someone else? How long will that take? Maybe there won't be someone else, what do you do then. Or are you going to let them do their job but then worry yourself sick about whether they've spread COVID to you?

Sometimes ignorance is bliss!

LemonSwan · 02/03/2021 12:51

@Belladonna12
Thank you for taking the time to make an educated explanation. I am sorry you have also been through similar but without the protection from 1st jab.

To clarify I never said the elongation period was fact, that was just a theory as it has boggled everyones minds.

It is a real shame if tests were incorrect for that period and that coincided with the new variant. As you say we feel very lucky the residents have all been vaccinated, but we are also upset they havent had 2 yet, and obviously upset that this has happened. Its mixed feelings.

Padton · 02/03/2021 13:09

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Padton and Lemonswan

The vaccines DO cut transmission from 2 weeks after vaccination according to actual scientific studies. AZ cut transmission by 67% and there's similar data for Pfizer.

I'm sorry you have had an outbreak at your workplace but it doesn't make what you are saying true. There is no evidence at all that a vaccine would extend the incubation period. What it might do is convert a symptomatic infection into an asymptomatic one because that's what reducing severity is.

What is more likely and based on science is that tests are not infallible. One of your residents negative tests was wrong. Not surprising. There is a reasonably high false negative rate even for PCR. Lateral flow tests are very very inaccurate and don't mean much at all. They can detect positives accurately but they give a lot of false negatives. Also barrier nursing and PPE is not infallible. The most likely thing is that a staff member got an asymptomatic infection from an asymptomatic resident in isolation despite PPE and these were not detected on tests and hence it spread.
If you want an explanation that is it.

If yours was the Kent variant and anything less than 100% of your staff and residents got it then the vaccine probably did reduce transmission.

We also had no outbreak on our ward until December. We quarantined the sporadic cases we found, cleaned obsessively and they did not spread. We patted ourselves on the back. We had no access to vaccines then for staff or patients. Unfortunately in Jan when the Kent variant started to sweep through 100% staff and patients were positive within a matter of days from one person despite all our practices being the same. A number of wards in our hospital had the exact same thing happen.

It's the Kent variant that is the game changer and not the vaccine. You should be very glad your staff and residents had been vaccinated as ours had not and yes people died. Which was horrifying after working so hard all year to keep them safe.

Vaccines reduce transmission
PPE reduces transmission
Cleaning, distancing, hand hygiene all reduce transmission
But none of these are a 100% guarantee so we need to do all of them whilst cases are still high.

Staff and residents had almost all received the first vaccine - only 2 or 3 out of over 100 hadn’t. It did spread to very near 100% of people and we too had stopped other previous single infections in their track with cleaning and isolating so we are fully capable with infection control and PPE.

It definitely did reduce symptoms but it definitely did not reduce transmission. The variant isn’t relevant as we can’t know which variant is in any place at any time.

Evidence is starting to emerge that it reduces some transmission but I’m afraid you’ve contradicted yourself. It can’t reduce transmission and fail to stop an entire hone being infected at the same time.

I’m well aware of the reliability or not of the tests - that doesn’t explain what happened in this case.

The OP can protect herself by having the vaccine. HCPs can protect themselves by having the vaccine.

We need a lot more evidence before we can make bold claims about it doing any more than protecting the individual who has it.

VivaLeBeaver · 02/03/2021 14:08

I'm having quite a big operation next week. They told me today in pre op that they have to tell me if I catch Covid while in hospital I'll have a 20-30% cha of dying due to the combination of Covid and the surgery.

I still won't be asking if people have had the vaccine or not.

Belladonna12 · 02/03/2021 14:34

We need a lot more evidence before we can make bold claims about it doing any more than protecting the individual who has it.

Arguably, we need a lot more evidence before we make bold claims that it doesn't do more than protect the individual that has it. The fact that people in the care home still got it doesn't demonstrate to me that it doesn't reduce transmission . They have only had one vaccination and elderly people may not produce a very good antibody response compared with younger people .
Nobody should insist on either and everybody should get vaccinated and use PPE at the moment. As you say, if people assume they can't pass it on they may not be careful enough with infection control. However, if they think it has no effect on transmission they may not see any reason to get vaccinated if they are young and healthy. Neither

Sootess · 02/03/2021 15:07

Where I work there has been a VERY high uptake of the vaccine (not 100% though).
So you’d be far more likely to be looked after by vaccinated staff than not