"It's What boys do"

[ImFree2doasiwant]

As in, rough play, wrestling, taking it a bit too far, pushing, pulling, which sometimes deteriorates into one biting, or pinching, or scratching. So long around on the floor in a "bundle " and being really bloody noisy.

These are my DC btw, and this has been said to me by friends and family, if I've mentioned how hard I find it to deal with. Because sometimes, they just don't stop.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to play together or leave each other alone. I don't think it's reasonable to start this with another family members (much older) DC as soon as they walk in the house (single parent, support and childcare bubble.)

Aibu to expect to be able to leave the room without all hell breaking loose? And to expect them to behave when visiting?

Any advice on how to deal with it? They are outside a LOT and very active. 4 and 5.

I know this is aibu so I might get a pasting, but along with the aibu I really would appreciate advice.

It’s a physical age, they’re learning through play etc no harm unless they’re actually breaking things or hurting each other etc although admittedly I wouldn’t expect them to do it at visitor’s houses.

Time and Place.

Yes they can wrestle and play fight, but htey need to know when and where that is OK, and when and where it isn't.
So on that basis, you can practise times when it isn't OK.
You talk about times when it isn't OK, and you hold them to it.

You might even have a simple code for them, so if you go somewhere, you can say this is a QP house. (quiet play) or something, and then your expectation is no play fighting or wrestling.

We used to have quiet hour after lunch, when they were expected to do soemthing/anything quietly for an hour (not screens) That maybe too much, but introducign the idea that for the next 30 minutes, you are expected to curl up with a book/build quietly with lego/do some drawing/build with playdough etc is not a bad thing, along with during quiet hour, voices need to be low.

But on the other side, teaching safe play fighting, having a 'stop' word where they HAVE to stop, teaching them how to recognise that it went from play to real. having a rule that if someone goes away, you are not allowed to give chase etc.

It is also about communication, teach them how to say things like - that's not fair, I was playing with it and you took it, rather than launching in to jump on top of the one who took it. Use Your Words, is a common mantra!

My boys don't behave this way, they are 12&10. I don't know if it's their personality or the way they have been brought up but I have a zero tolerance approach to any level of violence.

They play sports, run, swim and have bags of energy. They also do martial arts and lots of other activities.

You are doing the right thing in your approach. I hate the stereotypes of how boys and girls should behave.

They're not happy. The older is becoming quite controlling, and annoying the younger, who ends up screaming in frustration.

@ImFree2doasiwant

They're not happy. The older is becoming quite controlling, and annoying the younger, who ends up screaming in frustration.

Time to talk to them separately.

It can be very helpful to say to a child - I know that it is really annoying haveing a younger brother who wants to play what you are playing all the time. It can be frustrating. Here is a plan...

and same to the younger.

If they have separate rooms, then have a rule that when they are in their rooms, the other it NOT allowed in without permission. Be really firm, and give them space.

Thenyou can say to either - your brother is annoying you, so why don't you go and do something else, on your own, in your room for a while and get some space and peace?

If they share, then have a rule like - on my bed, my space.

Your house sounds like my house OP... It's very similar here. DH then sides with DS1 and says DS2 sometimes winds him up so deserves it I'm in the 'Neither of you children should be fucking doing this, so fucking stop' camp tbh. I do try to stop the swear words before they emerge but my tolerance has waned over time, alas. However DS1 has improved slightly recently (he's nearly 10) so I am cautiously optimistic about the future....

Im sorry i have no advice op, just solidarity

I have 2 DDs and they act in a similar manner
Sometimes its like shaking a bottle of fizzy pop and unscrewing the lid!

The biggest problem I've found with children being told by others that their behaviour is ok is that they then behave worse in front of those people because they seem to think it's ok to get their bad behaviour out there - like they've been given permission!

Then you feel awful because they behave worse out of the house than at home and that's the opposite of what you want

So I spoke to my ds before we went anywhere else. Even friends houses where they did allow behaviour I wouldn't.

I explained that regardless of what X said was ok, I would not tolerate that behaviour and if he chose to do it then X consequence would happen. (Usually leave!)

Then follow it through. Every time. Until they choose to stop.

I don't buy the gender thing and I think personality comes into things a lot. Ds was never rough and tumble and hated it (whereas my friends DDs were really rough and didn't know when to stop) but he was bouncy and would jump around indoors and would be told to go outside!

Biting and scratching is not play fighting, it's fighting and they have to stop. What do you do when they do it ?

I dislike that kind of comment too OP , my mum does this no matter what my son does she has to remark " ah yes just being a boy "
Like lets just excuse his behaviour and indulge him because hes a boy then eh. It's an outdated opinion in my eyes and growing up I was expected to be sensible and account for my action whilst my brother got away with murder with whatever " boys" do .
I cant comment on your dc behaviour but you must parent them as you see fit and dont give special dispensations for gender .

@ImFree2doasiwant

They're not happy. The older is becoming quite controlling, and annoying the younger, who ends up screaming in frustration.

Sounds to me like he's got to the stage where it has stopped being play fighting and has become outright bullying and physical domination.

That has to stop, doesn't it, or he will get into really big trouble if he thinks he can behave in the same way at school with other children.

That kind of comment is exactly why I can't entirely take it seriously when people are horrified on here by the amount of people that don't want/like boys. Is it any wonder when so many want to tell you this is just what they're like and you can't expect any better from them?

My 5 year old is like this, he does turn into a bit of a bully with his 3 year old brother. He gets told off every single time for it!

This week in school, his friends didn’t do what they said they would so he hit them! Hit one friend on the arm & another on the bum. I was absolutely mortified & got them to write a sorry card etc, he was so emotional that evening. The worse part is the teacher didn’t even tell us but that’s another story.

Anyway, my point is that he’s so used to being physical with his brother it’s now manifesting into other areas. I’m absolutely stumped with what to do as I am a bit of a shouty mum, I’m not a pushover. He gets sent to his room/step etc, I always tell him to move away (even little things like he’s just obsessed with touching his brother which winds him up).

I have noted a few of these books to read because I’m at a loss too, he’s physical but he’s also extremely emotional. He cries at things on tv, he cries whenever he does something naughty. You’re not alone!

DS1 and DS2 were coming out of school with me once. One of DS1’s classmates ran off into the very newly planted and lovely garden beds on the way out of school. His mother sighed and looked at me and said smilingly, ‘Boys!’ and made zero effort to stop him.

My boys were not running around in the garden beds where no child had any right to be. I’m pretty sure it was not the other boy’s penis or hormones forcing him to be a disrespectful little hooligan.

I saw a young girl beating the crap out of her little brother until their parent intervened so it's not just boys but yes the 'boys will be boys' spouted by so many people is so irritating.

I have 2 boys with a similar age gap and they wrestle but I monitor it and they are not allowed to hurt each other.

I was also the mum with a screaming child under her arm taking them out of soft play while being judged by other parent saying oh they're just being boys...

It's unacceptable imo. Keep strong op.

I used to physically fight incessantly with my (younger) brother and our parents would often have to step in if it went too far. As teens we got on great, still do.

I have 2 DSs and took the same approach. I have consistently encouraged them to get along. They learned over the years how to resolve disagreements themselves (14 and 16 now). They’re great mates. My approach would have been the same with girls or boy/girl siblings.

It’s not only what boys do - it’s what siblings do and what adults do is supervise and teach them to get along.

You only have to watch kittens to see the scraps they have are actually bonding. If it stops looking like bonding-type fighting its time to intervene and tell them to stay away from each other if they can’t get on.

I think sometimes people say things like this ‘oh, boys eh?’ When they’re embarrassed by the behaviour of their own or someone else’s child.

@bloomingroses

I have grandsons and granddaughters. The boys have always been a bit rough with each other, literally rolling round on the floor. I was always having to intervene afraid they might hurt each other, but they never cared if they did. My granddaughters would never fight that way, much more verbal. Most boys grow out of it imo, but on the whole it’s the males who get into punch ups when they get older not girls.

You only have to look in the playground to see the difference.

I worked with young children for decades. Little boys (not all of them) are overwhelmingly the sex with a need/obsession for 'play fighting' - but this is Mumsnet where we have to pretend that girls do it just as much, god knows why.

I have 3 boys here, who are always wrestling/play fighting etc. If it gets too violent I call an end to it and explain it's gone too far and to chill out. My husband actually guides them sometimesn in the proper moves to get out of holds and things, so they're actually learning something. They don't argue verbally though, and this just seems to settle things between them all. My MIL never let husband and his brother fight it out, and they he still now believes they would've got on far better if she had. They have nothing to do with each other and haven't for decades.

There is no difference in the brain to lead to boys being more violent, but society conveys the need to repress angry impulses to girls (which is not necessarily a good thing).

My girls play fight (with adults and with each other) but if they hurt each other, or don't stop when someone wants to stop, then they get in trouble. I think you need to have clear consequences and follow them every time - time out, loss of a privilege etc.

If they often hurt each other, then I'd be inclined to ban play fighting for a while. It isn't an essential, but feeling safe in their home (and not learning to physically control and abuse others) are essential.

I worked with young children for decades. Little boys (not all of them) are overwhelmingly the sex with a need/obsession for 'play fighting' - but this is Mumsnet where we have to pretend that girls do it just as much, god knows why.

But Apples is this because the parents were letting more boys get away with it at home ‘because they’re boys’?

Girls do it. As long as they are generally careful about their surroundings and your limits (2 DDs occasionally like to use their feet ).

They should be more careful when going to other people's houses. Right now it's your bubble, when covid ends it's everywhere!!

I have 3 boys and never allowed any violence or aggression. My boys didn’t play fight or wrestle- probably because I never encouraged that kind of play. I actively encouraged imaginative play instead. My boys bickered and argued of course all siblings do - but they weren’t allowed to get physical.
All this nonsense about play fighting being “important” really?? My boys have grown up just fine without it! As for Steve Biddulph and that awful book of his - yuck! It just reinforces stereotypes as far as I’m concerned.

OP my best advice is new rules, new activities and redirect them every time the physical stuff starts. You can turn things around.

But Apples is this because the parents were letting more boys get away with it at home ‘because they’re boys’

I don’t think that’s the case at all. When my kids were little my dds just didn’t play that way, it was all verbal mainly. In my grandsons case it just seems to come natural, they ENJOY it. My dd no way encourages it, just the opposite. Don’t get me wrong, they’re lovely kind boys but they like to play rough. I bet most teachers must notice the difference.

@lunar1 that's good to know. There are boy siblings in the extended family, close in age, who are still like this at a bit older than yours. The idea of years of it fills me with dread.

OP yes I've got the same issue but as opposed to you I get tut-tuts from strangers when I'm out with my lot as I notice that when 2 girls are playing people reckon it's cute whilst as soon as they see 2 boys playing they see them as annoying.

Boys are more boisterous on the whole, they do have different levels of hormones to girls (MN is funny like that, 'BOTH boys and girls are the same/oh but men are not the same as women'. 🙄). Yes you must call out voilent behaviour but also teach them methods to calm down and apologise to their siblings. It is utterly physically exhausting as you feel like you are constantly playing referee so you do end up compromising like a pp said e.g. yes to noisy rough play but no to hurting etc.

And yes, in all my years on MN I have never seen a thread where the poster was disappointed that they were having a girl (of course there may have been but no way near as prevelant as the opposite situation).