To think WFH permanently is a game changer?

[MiaMarshmallows]

For working parents as it saves on childcare costs as well as commuting etc?
DP been told he can wfh indefinitely and it's going to improve his lifestyle so much more. For everyone saying he will be outsourced, not a chance. He is very specialised in what he does and earns a very good wage for it.
One good thing to come out of all this at least.

@notalwaysalondoner

I think it is a game changer for parents. I think what many people and organisations underestimate is the long term impact on new people and company culture. It’s all very well working from home 100% when you’ve been at your company for years, know what you’re doing, know the tools, know the team, know the culture. But when it’s your first week or month or six months, it’s so so so much harder to figure out what’s what, who’s who, and to get that apprenticeship and network you need. Companies are starting to see the impact of this already (mine is seeing serious retention issues with people who joined about 9-12 months ago) but I think those organisations that are letting everyone work from home indefinitely if they want to will need to figure out how to address this issue. A similar problem occurs after promotions or transfers to new teams too.

I totally agree and I think it even applies for those of us well established in jobs/organisations. I feel at the moment I am just about running on the fumes of pre-existing relationships, networks, knowledge of company culture, etc. I don't think this is sustainable in the long run. In more people oriented businesses in particular there is simply no substitute for the energising and mutually beneficial effect of being there , of meeting and interacting with people and of 'seeing' what's going on. Personally, If I had to stay working from home indefinitely I would leave my current job and re-train or go and work in a supermarket or something. That's just me personally, but my role isn't suited to it either.

Perm WFH jobs will become the ‘mummy track’ jobs. Lower paid. Offices will be full of 20- early 30s of both sexes, childfree women and men of all ages.

Can see this happening. I definitely think wanting to WFH permanently is more of a female/mum thing, just my own perception of that but I am on a few different forums including a football one which is quite male dominated and they are all desperate to get back to the office whereas MN seems to be in a bit of a bubble about it and hoping it becomes the norm. All the people under the age of 30 at my job are desperate to get back too.

I'm lonely af working from home, I was self employed before the pandemic and that was lonely enough, but now I'm desperate for a full time job so I can spend time round other humans again!

DP and I will now be mainly WFH. He did that a lot anyway pre covid. I used to about once a fortnight ( partly due to health issues). My large public sector organisation is moving to a remote first model for those who want it and it looks like the vast majority will do this. I will still work in the office a couple of days most weeks, when it opens. This is because I'm a manager and want to support more junior colleagues because of some of the issues mentioned above. I'll definitely keep youngest in childcare though until she finishes primary.

A friend of mine runs a team of new graduates. Some of them were recruited during the pandemic and so have never seen the office or colleagues. They are all struggling. It is so hard to absorb the company culture, get mutual support from colleagues or learn informally. Most have totally inadequate home working setups, some are still using laptops whilst sitting on their beds in flat shares.

WFH does reduce nursery costs for me. Nursery is close to my home, work is a 45min commute away. I work 9-5 so when I’m in the office, he gets dropped off at 8 and picked up at 6. WFH I drop him off at 8.30, then take a shorter lunch and pick him up at 5. That hour and a half saving a day quickly adds up, and it’s a shorter day for DS too and he’s not so overwhelmed and exhausted. It also means I get a bit more quality time with him in the mornings and evenings.

I understand not everyone will be in this same position, but a lot of people are.

The company I work for is moving towards a flexible way of working where there will be some days in the office and some wfh. I have no desire to go back to commuting 2.5 hours per day. I have found that my hours have crept up though since I’ve been wfh

From the responses on this thread, it seems like 50% of people love it and the other half hate it. So i suspect it will be 50/50 with regard to full time wfh/primarily office based with some flexible working and people would switch jobs based on their preferences. This is the short to medium term.

But in the long term, no one knows the long term effects of a 100% WFH workforce.I suspect for more cut throat work environments, it is not ideal and those jobs tend to be better paid anyway.

I think your comment re childcare costs is a furphy as it would not change for most people unless their child is in upper primary. So, maybe 2-3 years where kids are able to independently and safely occupy themselves as opposed to lower years where they would definitely need childcare or upper years where they would not need this irrespective.

I always wonder on these threads when people are so excited that they no longer have to commute long distances and have saved both money and time, why it took a pandemic to make them change things?

By and large most people are able to choose where they work and where they live and the distance between those two places (yes, sometimes you have to make undesirable short term decisions but generally you don't). If they don't want a long commute then they just pick job/home accordingly. I work with lots of people with long commutes who could live closer to work - they've just chosen not to.

@BlueSoop

I would love to wfh but the fact is most employers want people in. Imo we will end up with a social divide where poorly paid workers are wfh and higher paid workers are required in the office.

I think it will be the other way round. All "professionals" in my line of work are wfh but support workers and those lesser qualified are in work.

I bloody love WFH, I get to spend time with my Ddogs and DH who also works from home. We have separate working spaces and come together to exercise and have lunch.

My productivity is up if anything as I can be 'on' all the time. Previously, I'd generally 'shut up shop' at 7pm ish after my commute, now I feel that the compromise of WFH means that I should be available as much as possible and that's ok with me. It's in my interest to show my boss / firm that I can work effectively from the comfort of my home..

As for the social aspect, I have friends outside of the office as a lot of people do...and inter office relationships are frowned upon in most professional environments, offices aren't meant to be some sort of dating platform, so that argument doesn't stick with me.

@anniegun

A friend of mine runs a team of new graduates. Some of them were recruited during the pandemic and so have never seen the office or colleagues. They are all struggling. It is so hard to absorb the company culture, get mutual support from colleagues or learn informally. Most have totally inadequate home working setups, some are still using laptops whilst sitting on their beds in flat shares.

I really feel for these young people. And then having to be all 'up' and enthusiastic and eager beaverish about it as newbies. Can't even have an old bitch or moan about it really the way us old timers can.

Good lord NO - the thought of being at home trying to do my job long term would be enough for me to hand in my notice - it's hell.

a) I can't actually DO mu job effectively from home - even with Teams (we where using a phone line before which was a billionty times worse) it's difficult - I work better when I can look people in the eye! Especially if I am challenging them.

B) I need down time - my job is very pressured and demanding - at least out of lockdown - doing home visits etc I will have time driving where I don't feel obliged to respond to emails as soon as they land!

c) I need my colleagues - we are a small tight team dealing with complex issues and it's good to be able to bounce ideas off each other

@RedskyBynight for most it's their first opportunity I imagine. Since having children I have taken as much flexibilty in my roles as I can including reducing hours, flex working and any WFH available to me.

But I'm under no illusion that these options are available to all. For many it's a case of work from the office full time or take a step back/worse paid job or even quit. Many offices to do not have a culture of supporting WFH and as many have said there are crappy managers who see it as skiving or they can't stand not being able to micromanage/see the presenteeism.

It's actually quite a privileged position to be in, to work flexibly, IMO. Especially for people who haven't had children yet as I reckon their flex requests are regarded with much suspicion without obvious childcare needs as a justification.

How does it save on childcare costs? I used to wfh half my week when my kids were younger and the kids still needed to be in childcare. Now they are older they don’t need childcare irrespective of where I work. He’s paid to work not babysit.

I don't think long term is good to work whilst juggling childcare & commuting costs in 2025 for 2/3 days will probably cost the same as 5 days now.

I think a mixture & more flexi working will be good for most.

@HollowTalk

It can be great if you have the space, but tons of people have been WFH locked in a small bedroom.

And how will anyone make new friends?

I'm 42 now and have enough friends, so I don't need to go into the office to make any more! But I agree a lot of people don't have the room at home to wfh indefinitely - I hope companies will keep offices available for those that need them.

For everyone saying he will be outsourced, not a chance

Don’t count your chickens

It’s not long ago that people were saying ‘not a chance’ to working from home ring possible for many roles and now look where we are

It’s really not a long stretch of the imagination to think specialist skills can and will be sourced from countries with lower labour costs in the future

@anniegun

A friend of mine runs a team of new graduates. Some of them were recruited during the pandemic and so have never seen the office or colleagues. They are all struggling. It is so hard to absorb the company culture, get mutual support from colleagues or learn informally. Most have totally inadequate home working setups, some are still using laptops whilst sitting on their beds in flat shares.

The other point is that most graduates aren't actually capable of doing the job they've graduated in, without real life work experience and training/mentoring in the workplace.

Over my decades as an accountant, I've taken on a fair number of graduates, some with accountancy degrees, some with business/management degrees, but also some with completely unrelated degrees (one I remember was traffic management!).

We trained them all the same way, from the ground upwards. The accountancy graduates really weren't that much more useful or better than the other graduates. What is taught by the Unis as part of the degree really isn't that useful for the practicalities of real life, day to day, accountancy. Yes, they usually had a good grasp of the basics of double entry book-keeping and knew how to use Sage software, (the none accountancy graduates we took on were sent on a 2 day "day release" course at our local college to learn basic double entry book-keeping and a separate 1 day course to learn Sage!) Neither accountancy nor other subject graduates knew taught how to do a VAT return, or a payroll, or how to create a set of accounts from a carrier bag or shoe box of screwed up paperwork or how to do a personal tax return for an OAP with a let property!

The accountancy graduates knew all about international accounting standards and auditing standards, and professional ethics, etc., but none of that was actually useful to day to day life in a town centre accountancy practice!

Graduates will usually need as much training, supervision, support and mentoring as non graduates. Unless they and other more experienced staff are working together in an office, they're really going to struggle and will take a lot longer time to develop into becoming independent/efficient workers (if ever).

@Whammyyammy

We both WFH now, sold one of the cars, no commute, no travel or in work coffee expenses, £6 pw tax back each..... tell me why I'd want to go back....

DH is saving a fortune not commuting to work, not to mention just under two hours a day. He'd still rather go back and have some proper face to face interaction with other people, have a bit of a laugh with his work mates, go for a wander round the shops at lunchtime, go to the gym (based where he works) after work. Everyone is different, some people don't want to spend most of their lives in one room.

I have been fighting for years to work from home!

It does save on childcare: I don't need to pay for childcare whilst I am commuting. We just need to make people understand that working from home means WORKING. Not babysitting, not watching tv, not faffing around. Most people have stepped up - the rest will soon be shown the door let's be honest.

It's more efficient, saves a fortune to employees and employers.
It's perfectly possible to spend a day or 2 a week in the office, and catch up then.

Instead of wasting time with colleagues you work, then have time to socialise or do your various hobbies. Everybody is a winner.

An office is not a social club, it's a place of work. You can find your social life outside! (when the pandemic is over, obviously)

By and large most people are able to choose where they work and where they live
On which planet? I can't AFFORD to live near my office. Most of my jobs have been in central London.

The last thing we need are a load of Londoners coming down and being a bunch of condescending pricks

I'm a born & raised Londoner, the condescending pricks aren't necessarily Londoners. It's like the threads around Christmas "I don't want Londoners bringing the virus to the north". Those people didn't just decide to reenact Games of Thrones, they were going to see family!

@TheLostDiadem

It better bloody not be. The town I live in is already too expensive for locals to buy a property. The last thing we need are a load of Londoners coming down and being a bunch of condescending pricks.

Whereas you are lovely?

The other point is that most graduates aren't actually capable of doing the job they've graduated in, without real life work experience and training/mentoring in the workplace.

This is so true. People need experience of real-life situations and see how their colleagues deal with and react to them, I think that gives someone invaluable guidance.