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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think it should be free and part of the childhood vaccines?

290 replies

CottonCandy01 · 22/02/2021 10:24

Hello,

My friend's son is getting his chickenpox vaccine next week, I believe it is costing around 140-150 pounds for the two doses. It got me thinking about my own young child (currently 6 months) and if this is a path I should take - on balance, i think I will get it for her.

The problem I have with this, is after researching why we don't have it as part of the childhood vaccines here this is what it returned:

*So why doesn’t the UK use the chickenpox vaccine for children if it is safe and effective at preventing severe disease? All vaccines in the UK are assessed for their cost-effectiveness to ensure that the health budget spent on services which provide the greatest health benefit for the population as a whole.

In the last review of the chickenpox vaccine by the committee which advises the government on vaccines (the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, JCVI), the future modelling of the impact of vaccination indicated that there could be an increase in the rate of shingles in adults over time, which would make the vaccine programme not cost-effective.

This is because, if chickenpox in children disappears as a result of a vaccine programme, adults would no longer have their immunity boosted by exposure to their chickenpox-suffering children and grandchildren and would be more likely to get shingles. Put simply, the conclusion of the previous review was that it would not be cost-effective for the NHS to immunise children against chickenpox*

So if I'm reading that correctly, it is basically because we can't afford it? I'm not naive or an idiot, I know the NHS is hideously underfunded but I just think it is so wrong. I'm in a privileged position that I can afford to vaccinate my child, as can my friend, but for those who can't I think it is really crappy. Chickenpox is not always a mild disease, it doesn't look like something that should even be in circulation in 2021, I remember my younger siblings, crying in pain all night and hitting temps over 40, one of them had to go to hospital.

Not sure what my AIBU is here but I just can't believe it isn't part of the vaccination schedule over here when it is in so many other countries. Seems so wrong.

OP posts:
bumhug · 22/02/2021 12:04

Oh, and I had shingles 2 years ago and yes I had a sore spot on my hairline but that was it. I was able to work and go about my day as usual. So shingles isn't always a debilitating car crash of a disease that is often made out.

Crackerofdoom · 22/02/2021 12:04

NHS cost analysis is not just about can we can afford it.

It is the cost, practicalities and risks of rolling out a vaccination programme vs the costs, practicalities and risks of treating people who catch the disease. It sounds cold if you are an individual who contracts the disease but that is what happens when you are managing healthcare for a whole population.

This is why some vaccinations are not offered or only offered to certain groups. With meningitis, it was offered to university students living in halls a decade before the general rollout because they were deemed to be at far greater risk of contracting it and also dismissing the symptoms which are similar to flu or a bad hangover at first.

A lot of anti vax sentiment in the US is fuelled by the view that big pharma, politicians and HCPs push vaccines for financial gain rather than because they are actually necessary. Sadly this has left a lot of quite moderate people distrustful of all vaccinations.

Chicken pox vaccine is not standard in Austria or France, both of which are countries with very well-funded healthcare systems so it is not as simple as the UK being cheap.

minipie · 22/02/2021 12:05

I don’t think there is any evidence that the chickenpox vaccine gives less long lasting immunity than catching it naturally, if that’s what you’re suggesting PinkFondant?

On the contrary, there is evidence the vaccine protects better against shingles later in life than natural infection www.statnews.com/2019/06/10/chickenpox-vaccine-shingles/

I’m really sorry it didn’t work for your child and they had a reaction - that’s very unfortunate.

Original poster
CottonCandy01 · 22/02/2021 12:08

this is from the bbc, when they last looked at it in this country:

Despite international confirmation of its safety, a small number of parents still refuse to give their child the jab - and many in the medical community believe this explains the reluctance of the authorities to introduce a brand new injection into the childhood immunisation schedule.

"This is what it's really all about," says Professor Adam Finn, consultant in paediatric infectious diseases at Bristol Royal Hospital for Children.

"The fact is parents who should be able to protect their child against chickenpox, an entirely preventable, unpleasant disease, are being held hostage by a small minority.

"Chickenpox is a disease which stops children going to school, means parents have to take time off work, and for children who are already sick can be very severe. And for a small cost we could be rid of it."

OP posts:
Original poster
CottonCandy01 · 22/02/2021 12:10

@PinkFondantFancy It is much rarer to have a reaction to the vaccine then the potential complications from chickenpox.

Sorry that happened to your child but I think we need to be careful about the information we spread about vaccines and their safety.

OP posts:
ancientgran · 22/02/2021 12:12

I am totally confused. I have had shingles more than once, it is horrible but I was told someone could catch chicken pox from me with shingles but you don't "catch" shingles, the virus remains in your body from when you had chicken pox and can reactivate as shingles. Did my doctor lie?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 22/02/2021 12:14

@CottonCandy01

this is from the bbc, when they last looked at it in this country:

Despite international confirmation of its safety, a small number of parents still refuse to give their child the jab - and many in the medical community believe this explains the reluctance of the authorities to introduce a brand new injection into the childhood immunisation schedule.

"This is what it's really all about," says Professor Adam Finn, consultant in paediatric infectious diseases at Bristol Royal Hospital for Children.

"The fact is parents who should be able to protect their child against chickenpox, an entirely preventable, unpleasant disease, are being held hostage by a small minority.

"Chickenpox is a disease which stops children going to school, means parents have to take time off work, and for children who are already sick can be very severe. And for a small cost we could be rid of it."

That was in 2010. I have quoted much more recent (2019) information about the vaccine being revisited, including some of the research that would be based on!
CuriousaboutSamphire · 22/02/2021 12:15

@ancientgran

I am totally confused. I have had shingles more than once, it is horrible but I was told someone could catch chicken pox from me with shingles but you don't "catch" shingles, the virus remains in your body from when you had chicken pox and can reactivate as shingles. Did my doctor lie?
No, you are right! The misinformation upthread confused me for a moment too!

Your doctor was correct.

Original poster
CottonCandy01 · 22/02/2021 12:17

I know it was 2010. I imagine the fact some parents are reluctant to vaccinate their children remains relevant today.

OP posts:
ancientgran · 22/02/2021 12:17

From the NHS website

You cannot get shingles from someone with shingles or chickenpox.

But you can get chickenpox from someone with shingles if you have not had chickenpox before.

When people get chickenpox, the virus remains in the body. It can be reactivated later and cause shingles if someone's immune system is lowered.

Why would children having a vaccination mean more elderly people would get shingles?

minipie · 22/02/2021 12:18

@ancientgran

I am totally confused. I have had shingles more than once, it is horrible but I was told someone could catch chicken pox from me with shingles but you don't "catch" shingles, the virus remains in your body from when you had chicken pox and can reactivate as shingles. Did my doctor lie?
You don’t catch shingles, it’s a re awakening if the CP virus in a different form.

But you can catch CP from someone with active shingles.

ancientgran · 22/02/2021 12:18

Thanks @CuriousaboutSamphire. Do you know why vaccinating children against chickenpox would have any effect on shingles amongst the old?

minipie · 22/02/2021 12:19

@ancientgran

From the NHS website

You cannot get shingles from someone with shingles or chickenpox.

But you can get chickenpox from someone with shingles if you have not had chickenpox before.

When people get chickenpox, the virus remains in the body. It can be reactivated later and cause shingles if someone's immune system is lowered.

Why would children having a vaccination mean more elderly people would get shingles?

Because if an adult who’s had CP in childhood is exposed to CP later (eg by their child getting it) this “refreshes” their CP immunity. This makes it less likely they will get shingles as an adult.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 22/02/2021 12:20

@CottonCandy01

I know it was 2010. I imagine the fact some parents are reluctant to vaccinate their children remains relevant today.
My point was that in the interim there have been studies, data has been gathered. It hasn't been ignored.
Original poster
CottonCandy01 · 22/02/2021 12:20

@ancientgran apparently, being exposed to children with chickenpox can give an immunity booster.

OP posts:
ancientgran · 22/02/2021 12:21

@minipie, yes but why would that mean more adults would get shingles?

It wouldn't have an effect on the current elderly as they have either had the virus or they haven't and for the old people of the future (the children now) if they don't have the virus they won't get shingles. Or does it mean the vaccine will eventually mean children who have had the jab are somehow more likely to get shingles?

WatchWatch · 22/02/2021 12:22

@CottonCandy01

From some of the research I have done, according to data that is coming out of the other countries the shingle argument doesn't stand up quite as much as first thought. It is being reviewed apparently. The meningitis jab i don't think was free until 2015? I can imagine this one possibly going the same way. I hope so anyway.
Yes, it probably will. Particularly once all older adults have had the shingles vaccine, which should be soon.
scubadub · 22/02/2021 12:22

Are you a first time Mum? (Ducks). Awful to think of your shiny new child being covered in spots, but it’s something most kids go through, it’s a bit scratchy but they’re absolutely fine...it’s just a tiny part of the pattern of childhood ... maybe dealing with a bit of discomfort isn’t necessarily a bad thing, however hard it is to watch for the parents!

How about watching your child due from it @RowanAlong because that's what a friend of mine had to do? Another family in my town now have nurses 24/7 for their daughter due to her complications from chicken pox...hardly a BIT of discomfort.

BashfulClam · 22/02/2021 12:22

I got shingles because I had had chickenpox and it re-activated after a stressful period. If I had been immunised tgat wouldn’t have happened surely. There is also a shingles vaccine offered to elderly people, I remember mentioning it to DH something his mum should maybe get.

ancientgran · 22/02/2021 12:23

[quote CottonCandy01]@ancientgran apparently, being exposed to children with chickenpox can give an immunity booster.[/quote]
How odd, I mean being exposed to the chickenpox i.e. when they had chickenpox, is what makes them able to develop shingles.

minipie · 22/02/2021 12:25

[quote ancientgran]@minipie, yes but why would that mean more adults would get shingles?

It wouldn't have an effect on the current elderly as they have either had the virus or they haven't and for the old people of the future (the children now) if they don't have the virus they won't get shingles. Or does it mean the vaccine will eventually mean children who have had the jab are somehow more likely to get shingles?[/quote]
If all of today’s children have the CP vaccine then today’s adults will not get the “immunity booster” from being exposed to live CP, and will be more likely to get shingles as they get older.

The children who are vaccinated will be fine. The concern is about today’s adults.

But there is now a vaccine against shingles so if today’s adults get that, the concern goes away.

ancientgran · 22/02/2021 12:27

@BashfulClam

I got shingles because I had had chickenpox and it re-activated after a stressful period. If I had been immunised tgat wouldn’t have happened surely. There is also a shingles vaccine offered to elderly people, I remember mentioning it to DH something his mum should maybe get.
Yes, you explain my thought better than I do.

I can't wait to be able to get the jab. I first had shingles when I was 14 or 15, I was in bed for weeks and the first time I went out it rained and the rain drops hurt so much I cried. I felt such a wally.

I have had shingles several times but the first time was the worst although I have had it in my mouth and I pleaded with the dentist to pull some teeth out as they hurt so much but he kept telling me there was nothing wrong with my teeth, it was the nerve pain from shingles.

ancientgran · 22/02/2021 12:29

I've got 4 children who have all had chickenpox, God knows how many times I'd have had shingles without those boosts. I'm already at the point that I've lost count.

Themostwonderfultimeoftheyear · 22/02/2021 12:31

I believe it will become part of thr NHS schedule at some point. DS has been privately vaccinated as we could afford it and I didn't want him to suffer. I know children who have had spots form in their genitalia and eyes and even on their lungs which resulted in hospital admission.

My only concern is it potentially wearing off but I will keep an eye on research from countries who routinely vaccinate and if a booster later in life is required I will pay for that too.

minipie · 22/02/2021 12:32

Gosh that’s awful ancientgran you have really had it a lot.

Would you be able to stretch to a private shingles vaccine by any chance?