To think it should be free and part of the childhood vaccines?

[CottonCandy01]

Hello,

My friend's son is getting his chickenpox vaccine next week, I believe it is costing around 140-150 pounds for the two doses. It got me thinking about my own young child (currently 6 months) and if this is a path I should take - on balance, i think I will get it for her.

The problem I have with this, is after researching why we don't have it as part of the childhood vaccines here this is what it returned:

*So why doesn’t the UK use the chickenpox vaccine for children if it is safe and effective at preventing severe disease? All vaccines in the UK are assessed for their cost-effectiveness to ensure that the health budget spent on services which provide the greatest health benefit for the population as a whole.

In the last review of the chickenpox vaccine by the committee which advises the government on vaccines (the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, JCVI), the future modelling of the impact of vaccination indicated that there could be an increase in the rate of shingles in adults over time, which would make the vaccine programme not cost-effective.

This is because, if chickenpox in children disappears as a result of a vaccine programme, adults would no longer have their immunity boosted by exposure to their chickenpox-suffering children and grandchildren and would be more likely to get shingles. Put simply, the conclusion of the previous review was that it would not be cost-effective for the NHS to immunise children against chickenpox*

So if I'm reading that correctly, it is basically because we can't afford it? I'm not naive or an idiot, I know the NHS is hideously underfunded but I just think it is so wrong. I'm in a privileged position that I can afford to vaccinate my child, as can my friend, but for those who can't I think it is really crappy. Chickenpox is not always a mild disease, it doesn't look like something that should even be in circulation in 2021, I remember my younger siblings, crying in pain all night and hitting temps over 40, one of them had to go to hospital.

Not sure what my AIBU is here but I just can't believe it isn't part of the vaccination schedule over here when it is in so many other countries. Seems so wrong.

Also the chicken pox virus causes shingles. There is a theory that wild strains of chicken pox circulating may boost immunity to shingles for adults who have had chicken pox but what we know really actually boosts their immunity is the shingles vaccine!

@CuriousaboutSamphire my vaccines are as up to date as I can get them but if they were not, that’s on me and I don’t and can’t expect someone else to be subjected to a fatal disease so I don’t have to bother.

I'm shocked at the amount of people on this thread who think it is fine for a baby/child to suffer from chickenpox (which, whilst usually mild, can have very serious complications), so that they can provide some protection to adults from getting shingles. Is that really what you're all saying? Children should suffer so adults dont have to?

@WineInTheWillows

There are issues with adult vaccines, as in many adults just don't bother. Who knows they have an up to date tetanus? Nobody!

If the NHS sent out, 'you're due a tetanus jab' letter, I bet most adults would get it. They've not even tried to make sure adults are up to date, in my experience. And I bet if I called and said I was due a tetanus jab, the response would be along the lines of, 'And?'

Would they? I doubt it. Men especially would stick that letter on one side and then forget it.

And if you do contact your GP and ask about a tetanus update... they book you in!

I'd like to have a shingles vaccine but the NHS only offers it to people 70+ years and I'm a long way off that.

I'd pay myself, but I will need a non-live shingles vaccine because I'm immune suppressed, and I can't find anything available privately.

I really, really don't want to get shingles on top of everything else.

So essentially, until it is cost effective, children catching chickenpox is to lessen the effect on adults potentially getting shingles because we also can't afford to vaccinate adults against shingles...??

Basically correct, although the shingles vaccine is available (free I presume) to adults in their 70s. I guess it doesn’t add up financially to vaccinate them sooner.

The issue with it is they need a good chunk of time off as it's highly contagious. My DS had what I thought was chicken pox aged 3, but then had Chickenpox again age 4 after just starting school 😬. He has a rash, started at his groin and spread, including face, very itchy. It's the I don't know if it is or isn't for me. He played with a child who wanted to catch it and they did, but he was very unwell (unfortunately) but the doctor said it wasn't chicken pox, just another viral rash as it wasn't scabbing over. So has he had it once, twice, never ? I don't know. I would like to get him jabbed, but I have a younger child too and so it adds up.

My vaccinations are up to date, and no I don't have the shingles one because I did not even know existed prior to looking into why I was having to pay for my child to have the chickenpox one in the future. NHS obviously don't make it very well known that these vaccines exist.

And for the record, that's irrelevant at this point because if I was offered the shingles vaccine I would have it in a heartbeat. I am also not of the opinion that children should suffer to save me.

So many not seeing it.

It's unpalateable but yes! Kids are left to have chicken pox to protect more adults because the childhood illness is less harmful and the adult disease more injurious and more expensive - to treat and in lost productivity etc.

Hard facts of life! That's how it is. Unless someone wants to start canvassing on a single issue - complete protection from all ills via the NHS, free at point of contact, costs god only knows how much in additional taxation! And that's suggesting it is even costable!

@CottonCandy01

but if that is the case, why is it part of the childhood vaccines in many other countries? the US, Germany, NZ etc?

I'm guessing they pay for it, either directly or included in their health insurance.

NHS obviously don't make it very well known that these vaccines exist. Because you aren't in the age group they offer them to!

That's the point! If you Googled it and worked out what prophylcatic coverage you would have to pay for, to cover against everything possible, you propbably wouldn't bother! You would make a personal cost benefit analysis...

@ShulamithFirestone

Basically, our unvaccinated children act as innoculators for us against shingles.

The basic idea, yes. However it doesn't always work like that. I had chicken pox as a child and a mild case of shingles as an adult. Felt run down and a bit poorly for a few weeks/ten days. Not enough to call in for work but enough to feel it. Went to scratch my back at the end of this period and there was this horrible small growth scabby thing on my back. Most adults, I was told by the doctor get it in one affected area, rather than all over which would be the worst case, and I'd imagine pretty awful.

I do believe it will be free over here before long. Like I said there are several articles out there saying it is being revisited because they don't think the shingles argument is going to stand up.

It doesn't matter what way you dress it up, children are exposed to what could actually be a serious illness in some, because it might offer adults an immunity boost against shingles.

Like I said, it doesn't overly affect me because I can get my one vaccinated, just sucks for those who can't afford it. Sad facts of life I guess, money talks!

I had chickenpox as a child and shingles as an adult. I'm assuming shingles would have been much worse if I hadn't had chickenpox and it was honestly horrendous, far worse than the chickenpox were for me. I don't really know my stance on the vaccine because I don't know enough about its effect on shingles in adults. My daughter also had a very mild case of chickenpox and my son hasn't caught it yet.

And for the record, that's irrelevant at this point because if I was offered the shingles vaccine I would have it in a heartbeat.

NHS website says it is free if you are 70 or over, or you can pay privately if you are 50 or over but it may cost £100-200.

I have some interest in this - my dad (admittedly frail and in his 80s) contracted shingles, got really ill and ended up in hospital where he caught Covid and died. I presume he never had the shingles vaccine as they don’t give it to the over-80s as it is currently not considered effective enough.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I do think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I can't feel happy about the idea of children becoming potentially seriously unwell, on the off chance it might do me a favour as an adult, who could, if I really wanted to, go and get a vaccine. Children don't have that choice though do they and are completely reliant on their guardians choices.

Effective in that age-group, I should have said.

@CottonCandy01

But again, children should be exposed to a horrible illness to cover adults who choose not to get themselves a vaccine...? I do totally get what you're saying but not sure why children should suffer because some adults who are against vaccines might decide they don't fancy it. That's on them.

My kids both had chicken pox, both a bit poorly for a few days, then better. No drama. Neither of them remember it. I don't think they'd thank me if I'd had them vaccinated, and told them that they had to keep on remembering to get regular booster jabs for the rest of their lives, to avoid the risk of adult chicken pox (which is often horrible).

I'd need the Shingrix non live vaccine. Just found a clinic in London that does it for £525 plus travel costs. Yikes.

Also, I didn't think you could get shingles unless you have had chickenpox?

So if it was vaccinated against, you couldn't get shingles?

It is being revisited, or was being looked at before covid came along.

I had a look and found this quote on a few sites

"The UK is now revisiting the modelling to see whether the modelling that has been done in the past really does reflect the reality."

• Professor Judy Breuer, professor of virology and head of Division of Infection and Immunity at UCL Nov 2019

I'm assuming you've seen something based on a BMJ article about the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine research Nov 2019 (completed just before Prof Breuer's comment)

The lead author concluded

“This study cannot be used to justify for or against any specific chickenpox vaccination schedules. However, it strongly suggests that cost effectiveness modelling studies for routine chickenpox vaccination may need revisiting. The models currently assume adults gain complete immunity to shingles for between 2 and 20 years after exposure to a person with chickenpox, whereas this study suggests adults gain only partial immunity.”

I

@Bagamoyo1 depends doesn't it really. Who's to ever say who's children are and aren't going to be the unfortunate ones who get it badly. I'm not going to feel bad for getting my child vaccinated btw. That wasn't the point of the thread, it was whether or not it should be offered routinely to all children like it is in other countries.

Not surprisingly, it seems fairly divisive.

[quote CottonCandy01]@CuriousaboutSamphire I do think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I can't feel happy about the idea of children becoming potentially seriously unwell, on the off chance it might do me a favour as an adult, who could, if I really wanted to, go and get a vaccine. Children don't have that choice though do they and are completely reliant on their guardians choices.[/quote]
Disagree?

Beynd saying it is unpalateable I haven't expressed an opinion. Just commented on what is actually happening and tried to explain the reasoning behind it!!

@Sirzy

It’s not only about the cost though but shingles as an adult is awful.

It certainly is!

I had chicken pox when I was 36. I was bloody ill, and it took several weeks before I felt anything like well again. Over the next few years, I had several attacks of shingles. It was incredibly painful and one attack lasted weeks.

The shingles stopped after a while, but I continued to suffer from regular attacks of post-herpetic neuralgia, almost as painful as the bloody shingles itself. The last time was over 10 years ago now, so I'm hopeful it's finally stopped.