To think the way some birth mothers are treat is appalling

[SpringHasSprung20]

A decade ago when I was still in my teens I had a baby removed from me at birth by social services and put up for adoption against my will.

It wasn't me who was the risk, I was being abused by the father and fought so hard to get away, have him prosecuted and keep my baby. I've posted about my story before.

Fast forward to now I'm approaching 30. I have a family and I'm living on the other side of the country with two subsequent children in my care full time with no SS involvement. I have a good life and haven't spoken to the abusive ex since I left him. I'm a different person. A strong person.

SS never allowed to meet the adoptive parents because I was opposing the adoption.

Do you know what contact I have with my son? One letter per year, due every April but it's usually always months late.

All of my letters are inspected by an adoption social work team before they'll be passed on to the adoptive parents/my son. Protocol. Most years they are sent back to me to edit out parts where I've told him I love him or miss him. I'm not allowed to say that, it's too emotional apparently.

I'm not daft, I know it's not in his best interests for me to be emotional in letters so I never am - but I do want him to know he's loved.

They are pedantic beyond comprehension. One year I had a letter telling me he was doing well in school, in my reply I said I was proud and he's such a clever boy. They sent my letter back and made me change "you are so clever" to "you sound clever"

I've had to plead with the adoption team for years to ask the family if I can have a photo, after 8 years of the adoption team saying "we don't let birth parents have photos" a kind contact coordinator finally agreed to ask the family for me.

The family took a while to decide but agreed I could see a photo. I can't keep it though.

I have to liase with an adoption team in my area and ask that the photo be sent to them so I can go into the office and look at it on a computer screen. Once. That won't happen this year because of covid so I have another year to wait before I can even catch a glimpse of my little boy. I have no idea what he looks like other than the sweet 6 month old face I have in a photo album, taken at our "goodbye contact"

I'm not allowed to send birthday cards or presents because it's a pain for the adoption agency to facilitate.

I have a box here that I save his cards in every year but that's not the point really is it? Imagine being a child and never getting a birthday card from your mum.

I'm not allowed to tell him about his siblings in letters. I talk to them about him all of the time but they must be kept secret.

All of the above is wrapped up as being in his best interests of course, but is it really?

I don't think he'll feel that way later on.

If you were adopted wouldn't you want to know that your 'birth' mother loved you? Would you be happy to only hear from her once a year?

I'm not a criminal and I've never hurt a child or been accused of it. I'm a good person and a good mother. I have the backing of SS here completely, after I approached them when I moved here. The senior manager raised her own concerns about how I was treat by that local authority and couldn't believe the way they work.

AIBU to think the way some birth mothers are treat is appalling? I'm not referring to abusive people or people who neglect their children, but people like me and others who were let down terribly.

I cannot move past the injustice of it all.

I think the issues arise when the child turns 18 and wants to seek out their birth parents.
When they find out the circumstances of their adoption and that they were forcibly removed from a mother who wanted to keep them I can see how they could then view their adoptive family in a different light especially if the birth mother is not the unfit or incapable parent that they were led to believe was the reason why they ended up being adopted.
I wonder how many, whilst grateful that they had loving adoptive parents at the same time feel cheated that they didn’t grow up with their birth parents/mother.

I am sure I have read about parents who after putting in years of love and support have seen their children return to their birth family and go low contact or no contact with the parents who raised them.

I am sure I have read about parents who after putting in years of love and support have seen their children return to their birth family and go low contact or no contact with the parents who raised them

Adopted adult here. Involved with communities and support groups for children who are also adopted. Many friends in their 30s like me who are adopted, through my volunteering. Literally never heard of this happening. Ever.

There are probably cases of it but there are cases of every single example of family dynamics you could imagine.

Anecdotal evidence of something happening a few times does not mean it is common at all.

It don’t appreciate my quote being used alongside ranting which attacks the OP’s experience and implies I support a narrative that frames SS as babysnatchers. I explicitly said that they aren’t. Indeed rather too slow, too often but also wrong and incompetent sometimes. The court system is the layer that should be protective and whilst generally efficient that too sometimes creates miscarriages of justice.

There is no professional sphere free from the escalating impact of overlapping incompetence and poor practice. If I shared my story it would be far less believable than the OP’s. I would be told that doesn’t happen and isn’t the way things worked then or now.

What if in the anguish of the OP there are errors - and I am not implying that there are OP - I can’t imagine how you justify the tone of your responses. It’s ironic that the condemnation and vitriol from some posters attests to the same type of attitudes that can lead to the most marginalised receiving the least tolerance.

In the Cox/ Carter and Webster cases the children had been living with their adoptive parents for 4 years. They would not actually remember their previous life and the adopters were the only parents they knew.

It was still right even in those cases that they remain with their adoptive parents because no matter what wrong was done to the birth parents (and I do not deny that it was in those cases) then two wrongs don't make a right and uprooting the children again to live with people who are now strangers to them is not right.
In fact I think the Websters did in the end agree that. They put aside their own grief for the sake of their children because that is real love.

It's the wisdom of Solomon if you know that tale

Those cases are famous because they are rare and the family court does learn from tragedies. You never see a fracture case now where metabolic bone disease isn't considered.

I do not in any way deny that tragic miscarriages of justice will occur but equally children are being abused and harmed every day. Peter Connolly made the news but there are so many more cases of babies being shaken and with broken bones and brain damage because of abusive men who in many cases also abuse the mothers who are unable to protect them. We know that sometimes women don't manage to break away from such relationships on the first attempt.
Sometimes it will be necessary to remove children to protect them.

I do not think there is any move at all to make adoption reversible. In all the recent cases I have read the judge has said that it must remain irreversible for the sake of children and for public policy considerations ie that no-one would ever come forward to adopt if their child could be removed after many years.

@RickiTarr think I made it very clear in my post that I am not victim blaming- ’I feel extremely sorry for mother’s who are forced into this situation because they are victims of abuse. It is not their fault’
If you want to manipulate my words carry on but that’s not what I meant and I think that was pretty obvious.

Scenarios like this are terribly sad but the child’s best interests are at the forefront of SS/court decisions not the parents which is why Op is in the position she is.

@Bythemillpond

I think the issues arise when the child turns 18 and wants to seek out their birth parents. When they find out the circumstances of their adoption and that they were forcibly removed from a mother who wanted to keep them I can see how they could then view their adoptive family in a different light especially if the birth mother is not the unfit or incapable parent that they were led to believe was the reason why they ended up being adopted. I wonder how many, whilst grateful that they had loving adoptive parents at the same time feel cheated that they didn’t grow up with their birth parents/mother.

I am sure I have read about parents who after putting in years of love and support have seen their children return to their birth family and go low contact or no contact with the parents who raised them.

As a pp has pointed out, what may seem like incontrovertible evidence of a wrongful adoption to a grieving birth parent may not seem that way at all to an adult adoptee meeting that birth parent.

The friend I mentioned upthread who recently traced her birth mother was literally confronted on their second meeting with piles of files her birth mother had saved for 28 years to document her removal and adoption. What her birth mother seems to have wanted was for her to say ‘This proves it — I shouldn’t have been taken!’ What my friend in fact felt was overloaded with the anger and pain of someone she only remembered meeting once before in a café, and who was all but a stranger to her. She says she felt too much was being asked of her. She’d had a generally happy, secure upbringing with her adoptive mother and had approached tracing her birth mother with mild curiosity, not all the boiling over of huge emotions her birth mother evidently felt. Her life since the age of 1 has not been the mistake and miscarriage of justice her birth mother evidently conceived of it as.

She’s decided not to see her again.

Yes, because it’s in the interests of the children - the child in the Webster Carr Case was 5 or 6 by the time it came to resolution.

It’s utterly awful for the Webster Carr couple, and a whole bunch of people should loose their jobs, but it would not be in the interests of their son to be returned to them.

Yes I understand about the issues around the children being disrupted and it’s very difficult indeed. It’s not like you can snap your fingers and remove the difficulty. It’s Solomon territory.

The articles are about 2 separate couples BTW; Ms Cox & Mr Carter lost their baby quite wrongfully and Mr & Mrs Webster three children due to error.

Maybe try to get the details straight? FOUR DC were wrongfully adopted across those two cases. It is a lot of loss. Reading the articles won’t magically dissolve your adoption of your AC @partyatthepalace

Beyond that though, the whole system would break down because adoptive parents would no longer come forward if adoption was not permanent.

Lots of people are prepared to therapeutically parent, FTA, concurrent care, long term foster, be kinship carers, generally provide permanence that meets the child’s needs. Not everyone wants to adopt primarily to meet their own need to have a child.

Maybe, in any case, the system is under threat anyway if these horrendous malpractice/mistake cases keep being swept under the carpet.

Thus video is harrowing, however that doesn’t mean there isn’t a good reason the baby is being removed. Content like this doesn’t have a useful role in this debate
The start of the video is harrowing, the documentary is insightful from children's lawyers, ex ss, independent SS, parents who finally got their DC back.
It is eye-opening if you're not guilty.
I tried to edit the beginning out sorry.

[quote HereLiveIAmNotACat]@RickiTarr think I made it very clear in my post that I am not victim blaming- ’I feel extremely sorry for mother’s who are forced into this situation because they are victims of abuse. It is not their fault’
If you want to manipulate my words carry on but that’s not what I meant and I think that was pretty obvious.

Scenarios like this are terribly sad but the child’s best interests are at the forefront of SS/court decisions not the parents which is why Op is in the position she is.[/quote]
I don’t want to manipulate anything. I just think we need to be clear that not all DV victims have MH problems or unhealthy attachment styles.

Some of them are perfectly okay to function and parent and are desperate to get away and just want practical support and financial help. If you walk out with what you can carry, setting your home again is nigh on impossible without help.

RickiTarr yes 4 children wrongfully adopted is a tragedy but those are the only 2 cases I am aware of in many years and that's vs how many hundreds rightfully adopted and saved from abuse and even death.

Long term fostering is well known not to provide the same level of security for young children as adoption (foster carers can move on or retire, they have no obligation to the child post 18). It isn't just about an adopters desire to have a child it's much more about a child's need to have a permanent parent. I wrote upthread about my friend who was really harmed by being long term fostered rather than adopted and has never felt unconditionally loved her whole life. It's absolutely screwed her up emotionally and she's been diagnosed with a personality disorder and finds nearly all interpersonal relationships impossible.
I think that too is a terrible tragedy.

Those cases are famous because they are rare and the family court does learn from tragedies. You never see a fracture case now where metabolic bone disease isn't considered.

How do you know they’re rare? How many families have been unable to later bring a case to court?

As the chair of the panel in my stage three complaint said whilst (unusually) giving their ruling at the end of the hearing: they didn’t believe for one second that the apalling treatment and injustice i and my children had experienced was an ‘isolated case’

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get back up and complain? Make noise? Some of the derision and incredulous ness here on this thread is a mere drop in the ocean of what you face if you somehow manage to pick yourself up off the tracks that SS train have just lumbered over right through the middle of your life and try to complain.

How many families have the emotional fortitude left? Or the financial ability? Or the various resources needed to go through hundreds and hundreds of case notes, sort our SARS from various organisations, and put together a case?

You have no idea how many families are out there who were treated unfairly.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

In the Cox/ Carter and Webster cases the children had been living with their adoptive parents for 4 years. They would not actually remember their previous life and the adopters were the only parents they knew.

It was still right even in those cases that they remain with their adoptive parents because no matter what wrong was done to the birth parents (and I do not deny that it was in those cases) then two wrongs don't make a right and uprooting the children again to live with people who are now strangers to them is not right.
In fact I think the Websters did in the end agree that. They put aside their own grief for the sake of their children because that is real love.

It's the wisdom of Solomon if you know that tale

Those cases are famous because they are rare and the family court does learn from tragedies. You never see a fracture case now where metabolic bone disease isn't considered.

I do not in any way deny that tragic miscarriages of justice will occur but equally children are being abused and harmed every day. Peter Connolly made the news but there are so many more cases of babies being shaken and with broken bones and brain damage because of abusive men who in many cases also abuse the mothers who are unable to protect them. We know that sometimes women don't manage to break away from such relationships on the first attempt.
Sometimes it will be necessary to remove children to protect them.

I do not think there is any move at all to make adoption reversible. In all the recent cases I have read the judge has said that it must remain irreversible for the sake of children and for public policy considerations ie that no-one would ever come forward to adopt if their child could be removed after many years.

There are a lot of posts in this thread that range from glib, to cruel to troll hunting. Far fewer actually engage with OP’s experience.

Endlessly repeating that “the child’s interest must come first” erases neither the mother’s horrendous pain nor the injustice to the child when a mistake is made.

The very best interest of a child with a good enough BM is to be with that BM. Adoption is always a suboptimal choice.

We can’t gloss over that because in other cases DC do desperately need to be removed and found forever families.

OP is a person and she is relating her pain and her trauma and what happened to her and she is being faced down by a tidal wave of whataboutery.

How do you know they’re rare? How many families have been unable to later bring a case to court? Exactly.
I do apologise again for linking the documentary without removing the first minute properly.
I've asked for it to be deleted.

She posted on AIBU a general ask about whether birth mothers are treated unfairly. If it was posted as a support thread I'd reply differently or not get involved.

RickiTarr yes 4 children wrongfully adopted is a tragedy but those are the only 2 cases I am aware of in many years and that's vs how many hundreds rightfully adopted and saved from abuse and even death.

Then you need to do some reading. It’s been far more than two cases and the glibness with which they’re dismissed is chilling.

Op I'm heartbroken for you, i can completely understand why you are still so affected. You did nothing wrong and have been deprived of your first born through no fault of your own. After losing a child in such a cruel way many people would have completely fallen apart but you have found that strength to carry on and rebuild your life and have a family and that i applaud you for.

As for all the people saying they don't just take children away, i suggest you read up and inform yourselves of the cruelty decent parents face at the hands of the secret family courts. False reports with absolutely no evidence to back accusations but because of the privacy its allowed to carry on.

The op was a young woman who clearly was capable of keeping her son if she was just helped to move to a place of safety and given support but once again its another child removed from a parent rather than helping her.
I understand if a parent is neglectful or abusing drugs then removal of a child is needed but this isn't the case here and the fact the op bettered her life even after the appalling way social services treated her shows she was always capable of leaving her ex.

Op I applaud you for your strength and my heart breaks for you and the injustice you have suffered and i only hope one day you get to have a relationship with your son and then you can tell him how much he is loved and it wasn't your choice. Whatever others on here say i think it will help him as an adult to know the truth than think you didn't love him.

Keep going my lovely ❤️

Well that’s something I can definitely agree on.

I do believe social services can and do help with practical support and financial help to victims of abuse with children in proceedings. I think it would be very unusual to see a child adopted because mother didn’t have practical means to leave an abusive relationship. Adoption has a very high threshold and not having enough money wouldn’t cross it. It is not rare however to see a child adopted because mother for whatever reason continued/was trapped in a relationship with an abuser.

You could be the strongest, most intelligent, caring, loving mum there is and end up with your child being removed/adopted if your in a domestically violent relationship and those circumstances remain the same for the duration of proceedings. Simply because the child’s welfare comes before parents.

@Emeraldshamrock

How do you know they’re rare? How many families have been unable to later bring a case to court? Exactly. I do apologise again for linking the documentary without removing the first minute properly. I've asked for it to be deleted.

It looks and sounds like mainstream media documentary. Panorama or similar? It’s not an amateur production.

I’m watching it now and it’s actually very well researched. I don’t know what sparked it at the time but there was obviously something legislative going on that sparked concern.

I’m not familiar with the whole background but I’m interested to know what the professionals featured propose.

@RickiTarr

Yes, because it’s in the interests of the children - the child in the Webster Carr Case was 5 or 6 by the time it came to resolution.

It’s utterly awful for the Webster Carr couple, and a whole bunch of people should loose their jobs, but it would not be in the interests of their son to be returned to them.

Yes I understand about the issues around the children being disrupted and it’s very difficult indeed. It’s not like you can snap your fingers and remove the difficulty. It’s Solomon territory.

The articles are about 2 separate couples BTW; Ms Cox & Mr Carter lost their baby quite wrongfully and Mr & Mrs Webster three children due to error.

Maybe try to get the details straight? FOUR DC were wrongfully adopted across those two cases. It is a lot of loss. Reading the articles won’t magically dissolve your adoption of your AC @partyatthepalace

Beyond that though, the whole system would break down because adoptive parents would no longer come forward if adoption was not permanent.

Lots of people are prepared to therapeutically parent, FTA, concurrent care, long term foster, be kinship carers, generally provide permanence that meets the child’s needs. Not everyone wants to adopt primarily to meet their own need to have a child.

Maybe, in any case, the system is under threat anyway if these horrendous malpractice/mistake cases keep being swept under the carpet.

No, lots of people are not prepared to care - there is a huge shortage of them. What’s more, what kids need is permanent families - birth families ideally, but when that’s not possible then adoptive parents. Foster careers do an amazing and vital job, but what the vast majority of kids need is permanent families.

It’s grim when mistakes happen, but the basic system of adoption permanence is not likely to change to accommodate these rare cases nor should it.

I’m sure you mean well, but on a variety of levels you are living in la la land.

I was floored the first time I seen it.

@HereLiveIAmNotACat

Well that’s something I can definitely agree on.

I do believe social services can and do help with practical support and financial help to victims of abuse with children in proceedings. I think it would be very unusual to see a child adopted because mother didn’t have practical means to leave an abusive relationship. Adoption has a very high threshold and not having enough money wouldn’t cross it. It is not rare however to see a child adopted because mother for whatever reason continued/was trapped in a relationship with an abuser.

You could be the strongest, most intelligent, caring, loving mum there is and end up with your child being removed/adopted if your in a domestically violent relationship and those circumstances remain the same for the duration of proceedings. Simply because the child’s welfare comes before parents.

Yes fair enough.

However OP says her attempts to leave him were blocked by SS on irrational grounds when she was 20 weeks pregnant and then they launched proceedings when she was nearly full time.

I can almost hear it “No we are assessing you now because of the DV so you can’t move across the country now to the safety of that refuge place”. Pure Kafka. Completely plausible when someone is robotically applying policy without thought.

So I believe her because thats exactly the same kind of way that other organisations tangle themselves in their own rules. I’ve seen it in other sectors. It’s more cock up than conspiracy but then cover up kicks in.

Besides, why would she turn up on MN and tell this very articulate, concise story? Wanting nothing but to tell her story? I’m not getting wind up vibes or hidden agenda from her posts.

I think it was a documentary shown on ITV.

Also for those who believe that SS gives practical support to leave: I received not one little bit of help of support. Nothing. Not even a referral to the freedom programme much less at help or support getting to a refuge or finding a place to live or moving.

Nothing.

Zip.

Nada.

The problem for me, believe it or not, is that I can see the fall out from both sides and it's not black and white but my judgement on my experience is that more children are harmed by not being removed than by being removed.

I work in mental health
Some of my clients have had children removed. In some cases it was clear that needed to happen. In some cases less so.
Some could have coped if they had better support but there is no money in social care or MH services to do what was needed.
I 100% agree that birth parents are poorly supported and bewildered by the system and that there is very little help to cope with the trauma thereafter. There is a huge need for advocacy. As far as I am able I try to redress that if I can.

But also
Many of my clients MH problems are caused by the abuse and neglect that they themselves experienced as children and the stories are heart rending and incredibly commonplace. Cycles of abuse do perpetuate down generations.
People do have a lack of perspective about their poor parenting and the damage to their children very often. They aren't lying usually they just think that love will overcome all and sadly it doesn't always.

Cases of people harmed by parental
abuse and neglect far outweigh those of people harmed by adoption in my own clinical experience.

I don't lack sympathy for the OP as her experience and I have said that a number of times but I do think that she needs support to cope with the trauma rather than people suggesting that the adoption can or should be undone.

Yes @wenning looks like you’re right. ITV.

www.itv.com/news/2014-07-13/senior-judge-says-highly-defensive-atmosphere-means-social-workers-under-increased-pressure-to-intervene-in-families

www.imdb.com/title/tt4062194/reference/?mode=desktop&