To think that a new law on maternity leave (for MPs) should be able to refer to women?

[MForstater]

New legislation going through parliament to give ministers maternity leave for the first time. ...

It doesn't talk about "women" just "people who are pregnant"

The explanatory notes say: "The Bill does not refer to biological sex or use gender-specific terms when referring to a Minister’s pregnancy and maternity. This reflects common practice of avoiding gender-specific terms when drafting, further to drafting guidance first introduced in 2007."

.... the gender neutral drafting guidance says nothing of the sort. They say that legislation shouldn't use "he" and "man" when referring to a role that can be done by either sex.

Is it unreasonable for laws to refer to biological sex when it comes to pregnancy??

twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1362744703322648576

@ruruvision - at what point do you believe a man becomes a woman? Is it surgically? Aesthetically? Or just mentally?

I'd like to see statistics on how many trans people there are in this country because the way people act you'd think it was 1 in 2.

I don't think I've ever actually met a trans person, let alone had to fear for my life in a public toilet.

I find it shocking that people can so freely share such bigoted views on mumsnet and it has crept over out of FWR and onto the other boards.

Knowing what a woman is is not bigoted!!

Only people who hate women would hold such a view.

@Thisisaterribleplay

So what do you believe that is contrary to the PP? Do you believe men can get pregnant?

It also doesn't wash to compare the current trans debate to the gay rights movement. Gay people are not claiming to be something they aren't. They are men and women who are attracted to members of their same sex. I don't see compelled speech being pushed upon society by gay people.

I don't understand what confuses you so much about trans people being afforded the same human rights as everyone else but nothing more. Why should they have rights that go above and beyond and to the detriment of other people?

@Thisisaterribleplay

I'd like to see statistics on how many trans people there are in this country because the way people act you'd think it was 1 in 2.

I don't think I've ever actually met a trans person, let alone had to fear for my life in a public toilet.

And yet you're so determined to bend over backwards and mangle language for the benefit of so few.

They have the same rights as anyone else. That doesn't mean they can flout other peoples rights. I recommend you watch the documentary "Disphoric" and listen to actual transsexual people's opinion on this nonsense. There are plenty of them also speaking up with the feminists you so despise.

It is of huge concern to the group of people who bear the physical burden of the possibility of reproductive labour (i.e. biological women) that the words we have used to group ourselves and demand political accommodation are under threat.

The increasing avoidance of the word "woman" by institutions to refer to biological women weakens out power to collectively organize, to engage in public discussion as a group and to advocate for ourselves.

It also makes it difficult to collect data to investigate what challenges we face and what impact policies have on us.

@fruitbrewhaha

'Trans women aren't women' - this is the absolute core of transphobia

How is saying that transphobic? I don't believe someone can literally change their sex. That's the whole point they are presenting as the other gender, much the same as someone who dyes their hair ginger is not an actual red head. I'm not going to treat them any differently because of it, live and let live, do what you need to get through the day, but this insistence that they are the other sex makes no sense.

If a transman wants to have a baby, so what, good for him, but ultimately that person is a women, hence why they can be pregnant, hence the term trans or other wise you wouldn't need the extra word. So the law still covers them.

Watch out for the day that they drop the "trans" part. That's what they're aiming for in the long run. Already statistics are being skewed as more and more date is collected allowing people to "self-identify".

The ramifications of this in the long run are unimaginable at this point in time. But we do know who will suffer most: women.

If women can not be named then oppression against women can not be named. If that oppression can not ba named how can we fight against it?

Women are especially vulnerable when pregnant.

If "people" rather than "women" can get pregnant then is it sexist to sack a woman for being pregnant? And if it's not sexist then what protection does that woman have in law?

No one is disputing that trans people have rights. But those rights do not include that of pretending that both sexes can give birth. Neither do they have the right to make others use labels which contradict the evidence of their own eyes/brain/logic. A woman is an adult human female. No doubt this post will be removed for stating the absolute bleeding truth.

@TheIncredibleBookEatingManchot

If women can not be named then oppression against women can not be named. If that oppression can not ba named how can we fight against it?

Women are especially vulnerable when pregnant.

If "people" rather than "women" can get pregnant then is it sexist to sack a woman for being pregnant? And if it's not sexist then what protection does that woman have in law?

And if "people" rather than "women" can get pregnant, who has a right to have a say in laws on reproductive rights?

Biological sex is a fact and it is not hateful, nor phobic, nor bigoted, to say that.

@TildaKauskumholm

No one is disputing that trans people have rights. But those rights do not include that of pretending that both sexes can give birth. Neither do they have the right to make others use labels which contradict the evidence of their own eyes/brain/logic. A woman is an adult human female. No doubt this post will be removed for stating the absolute bleeding truth.

The whole thread will be gone soon enough. Mumsnet bends over backwards to placate those who run and tell.

When facts are up for question, where does that leave us? What the fuck kind of mess have we got ourselves into when people push down their cognitive dissonance so far to be able to say "men can be women and women can be men"?

The new law has been phrased to cover the next trend in self identity e.g. gender fluidity where a person is a Man on Wednesdays and Thursdays and a Woman the rest of the week with two different wardrobes.

@AIMummy

The new law has been phrased to cover the next trend in self identity e.g. gender fluidity where a person is a Man on Wednesdays and Thursdays and a Woman the rest of the week with two different wardrobes.

Aka the oppressor on Monday and Thursday but the most oppressed Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday.

Because they legaly(sic) aren't a woman.

If you mean via GRC then one of the conditions for acquiring one is:
• you intend to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life

A trans man who gets pregnant clearly does not fulfil that condition and it just highlights the complete shitshow this is.*

^^

This, this and this*

And if you think you are a man, have always felt that you're a man, why on earth would you want to do the most womanly thing that it's possible to do?

Exactly. I'm not a woman I'm a man, because that's how I FEEL. Oh, except I also fancy doing that thing that epitomises being female, we'll just gloss over that shall we

So sick of this bollocks. Where are all the official documents and health education campaigns for 'people with a prostate' and 'ejaculating people'? Oh that's right, it's only women who have to shove over and be kind and be shut down from spreading hatred by saying biology is real. I've never seen anything equivalent about men, ever, but this shit is everywhere about women. If you don't care about this particular instance of women being erased from language, one will be along soon that you do care about.

[quote ruruvision]@JustAmotherOne I agree wholeheartedly. I've given up engaging on this issue on MN. Posters don't want to discuss calmly. They won't change their minds and just want to shout you down. I'm disappointed that MNHQ continues to allow such blatant transphobia to run rife. 'Trans women aren't women' - this is the absolute core of transphobia, and yet such comments are ten a penny. [/quote]
They're not women biologically, they're men. That's it.

I'll use whatever pronouns anybody wants me to, it makes no odds to me. My former housemate is trans and, when we lived together, confided in me rather than my partner who he had known for 15 years. I love my former housemate, we've been close for 20 years, and I certainly have no desire whatsoever to hurt them (or any other transwoman or transman, for that matter. Why the hell would I?!)

Don't expect me to deny that biological sex is real, though. Men can't get pregnant, because they're biologically male. Transmwn can, necause they're biolocally female. It is not transphobic to state scientific fact. Enough of this bullshit.

*Transmen can, because

Well, in legal terms it’s just been decided in law that the ‘birthing parent’ must be recorded as a mother.

So, transman or not, a mother is a woman whatever they self-identify as. And yes, I’d be less pissed off about this if there was such a clamouring to change all references to men to just ‘people’ or whatever. But that doesn’t happen, does it.

Only females/women can get pregnant and give birth

@MustardMitt

Well, in legal terms it’s just been decided in law that the ‘birthing parent’ must be recorded as a mother.

So, transman or not, a mother is a woman whatever they self-identify as. And yes, I’d be less pissed off about this if there was such a clamouring to change all references to men to just ‘people’ or whatever. But that doesn’t happen, does it.

Yes. Mother is a non gendered term. Mother does not mean female, it means gestator. So, technically, you can identify as a man yet still be a mother.

@InsideNumberNine

Yes. Mother is a non gendered term. Mother does not mean female, it means gestator. So, technically, you can identify as a man yet still be a mother

I'm starting to see why these discussions are impossible...

There is nothing wrong with using gender neutral words.
This is to cover people who don't identify as women or female.
Also there maybe a time in the future where cis men can have a baby. There are advances in science and im sure there will be womb transfers or artificial wombs which means cis men will be able to carry a baby.
All this hate against gender neutral stuff needs to stop.
We are all humans.