To think that a new law on maternity leave (for MPs) should be able to refer to women?

[MForstater]

New legislation going through parliament to give ministers maternity leave for the first time. ...

It doesn't talk about "women" just "people who are pregnant"

The explanatory notes say: "The Bill does not refer to biological sex or use gender-specific terms when referring to a Minister’s pregnancy and maternity. This reflects common practice of avoiding gender-specific terms when drafting, further to drafting guidance first introduced in 2007."

.... the gender neutral drafting guidance says nothing of the sort. They say that legislation shouldn't use "he" and "man" when referring to a role that can be done by either sex.

Is it unreasonable for laws to refer to biological sex when it comes to pregnancy??

twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1362744703322648576

Agree. It’s ridiculous and insulting to women. Men cannot be pregnant. Only women get pregnant.

@ruruvision what is it about transmen that makes them able to give birth?

I'm just curious what it is that makes them different to men. Or women.

Be great if you could give some info. Thank you.

Men don’t give birth so “people”is misleading as it implies both men and women can give birth equally and it erases women. I feel erased and my feelings matter too. Use women and trans men

It took us 100 years to have the word woman recognised in law, healthcare, employment, politics, sport and academia I will be damned if we give it up on the whim of misogyny.

Don't want to be called a woman then dont get pregnant!

Reading that Twitter thread up thread, why is penny mordant misrepresenting the gender act. It is there so that “men” is not used as the default in legislation. Not so that the word woman can’t be used. Has she misunderstood?

Only women get pregnant and have babies. Basic biology, which cannot be changed. Therefore changes in language referring to pregnancy is ridiculous.

And to those saying stick to the feminism board, AIBU can be used by anyone on mumsnet. And this subject needs to be discussed where it can be seen by everyone, so woman get a chance to debate and discuss the repercussions of these changes.

Transmen are not fully equal to men because there are inheritance laws that only apply to men and transmen don't qualify.

@Sapho47 - great. Let's re-word it up say women and people. It is not inclusive to remove the name of the 50% of the population that the legislation belongs to.

[quote InsideNumberNine]@Sapho47 - great. Let's re-word it up say women and people. It is not inclusive to remove the name of the 50% of the population that the legislation belongs to.[/quote]

Yes the cry of "inclusion!"

By excluding those to whom the legislation is most relevant.

Pandering to a fiction.

Yes of course. Existing maternity law and all laws about reproduction refer to women (i.e female people). Including laws written after 2004.

If they’re legally men there’s no point in referring to them as women in new laws.

It doesn’t make us any less women.

if you don't want to be a woman don't do the thing only natal born women can do and get pregnant.
Men can't get pregnant. its basic biology.
Ask your local farmer if its a bull or a cow that gets pregnant, calves and then produces milk or your local vet if you don't know any farmers.

Foo....

“If your chosen gender is male why on earth would you be getting pregnant? Men don't get pregnant. ....So a pregnant trans man either doesn't have a GRC and is therefore legally a woman or has lied in order to get his GRC and it should therefore be revoked. “

Trans men get pregnant so that they can become parents and have a child. In much the same way as trans women can and do choose to become parents to biological children.

There is nothing in the GRA conditions for gaining and retaining a GRC that prohibits or discourages trans people with a GRC from conceiving a child or carrying a pregnancy.

This ridiculous “gotcha” of “well, they can’t be trans men and must be lying if they get pregnant” is pure misinformation and prejudice against trans people.

So fed up of seeing it rolled out and nodded along with on mumsnet.

By parents, for parents. That’s all parents.

It that you’d know that from the way trans men who are parents are mocked, vilified, and denigrated continually on these boards.

There’s a frequent claim on here that trans men are of course to be included in women’s sex segregated spaces and services, so as to demonstrate how very not transphobic or trans exclusionary posters are.

And yet, every time a situation arises where trans men are included, along comes the criticism, abuse and protests about “erasure of women”, and accusations of fantasy, lying, calling it nonsense etc.

Well it’s the only way they can have a biologically related child.

That’s no reason to punish them by saying “ha ha you’re a man so you shouldn’t be allowed to get pregnant. Gotcha!”.

Life is difficult enough for people without adding more unnecessary cruelty.

@JustAmotherOne I agree wholeheartedly. I've given up engaging on this issue on MN. Posters don't want to discuss calmly. They won't change their minds and just want to shout you down. I'm disappointed that MNHQ continues to allow such blatant transphobia to run rife. 'Trans women aren't women' - this is the absolute core of transphobia, and yet such comments are ten a penny.

I just cannot get worked up about it.

"Erasure of women" is the party line but this offends me more than the so-called problem - I don't feel erased and it bothers me that I'm being told I should care.

I agree with PP who said that mumsnet shouldn't allow this blatant transphobia. I unfollowed all the feminism boards because it's a transphobic echo chamber and fuck all else. This isn't what feminism means to me.

Absolutely, this is NOT feminism. My understanding is that Roberts herself is, ahem, a 'feminist' of the GC kind, so it's coming from the top. Go on, delete this post MNHQ then

@ruruvision

Absolutely, this is NOT feminism. My understanding is that Roberts herself is, ahem, a 'feminist' of the GC kind, so it's coming from the top. Go on, delete this post MNHQ then

Gatekeeping feminism because more and more woman are standing up and saying that a man who surgically alters himself is not a woman?

We all have human rights. Transsexual people do not get to claim special rights above and beyond that. They have the same human rights as the rest of us. They do not get to police language. And they do not get to force society to play along with delusion.

Yes, it is nonsensical. If a biological woman becomes a trans man the one might think giving birth would be something they would not wish to do. As 100% of those giving birth are women, then why should the word not be used!

'Trans women aren't women' - this is the absolute core of transphobia

How is saying that transphobic? I don't believe someone can literally change their sex. That's the whole point they are presenting as the other gender, much the same as someone who dyes their hair ginger is not an actual red head. I'm not going to treat them any differently because of it, live and let live, do what you need to get through the day, but this insistence that they are the other sex makes no sense.

If a transman wants to have a baby, so what, good for him, but ultimately that person is a women, hence why they can be pregnant, hence the term trans or other wise you wouldn't need the extra word. So the law still covers them.

Life is difficult enough for people without adding more unnecessary cruelty.

I agree so why am I forced to share my space with males? It is cruel to force me to ignore my instincts. To ignore my fear my panic attacks and my guilt. Yet I am expected to put all this aside to validate a persons choice a males choice.

You want to talk about cruel talk about female prisoners having no choice but to share space with rapists . Or women in refuges having to cope with their trauma alongside a male who openly loves having his penis on show.

Thats fucking cruel.

I've asked twice, what is it that a transman has in common with men. What is it that they have in common with women.

Only women give birth so I'd love someone to parse the answers to the above and lift the scales from our eyes.