Being “BAME” doesn’t automatically increase your risk of infection and death from C19

[User26272829]

I have a personal interest in this because I’m a black woman. I keep reading that BAME(can’t stand this terminology which basically shoves very different groups into one mass) communities are at higher risk of infection and death from Coronavirus. When you look closer into the available data, there is nothing conclusive to show a link to ethnicity. It’s based on environmental factors such as housing, underlying conditions, deprivation, types of jobs and exposure to the virus/viral load.
I work from home, never use public transport, l’m under 50, fairly fit, don’t have any underlying conditions, don’t live in a deprived area and don’t live in multi generational housing. So how would I be higher risk than a white woman with the same characteristics? So AIBU to think that classing BAME people as higher risk is inaccurate and deeply flawed?

Haffiana you've quoted me and then gone into a froth about things I didn't even reference.

It does not serve the BAME community to jump to conclusions in this way, these allegations of gaslighting, ffs

Pompous in the extreme.

I think your style of denial and rant would really appeal to BAME with concerns about healthcare and vaccine etc - Not.

(& don't say I AM BAME complete with '!!!') as tends to happen on MN. I'm not buying it and your form of Whitesplaining is actually what could certainly be deemed as 'Not helpful'.

Renk

@DeeCeeCherry

Haffiana you've quoted me and then gone into a froth about things I didn't even reference.

It does not serve the BAME community to jump to conclusions in this way, these allegations of gaslighting, ffs

Pompous in the extreme.

I think your style of denial and rant would really appeal to BAME with concerns about healthcare and vaccine etc - Not.

(& don't say I AM BAME complete with '!!!') as tends to happen on MN. I'm not buying it and your form of Whitesplaining is actually what could certainly be deemed as 'Not helpful'.

Renk

Wow racist or what

Ultimately they don't really know - there is some indication that some ethnicities may be more likely to be seriously affected, but there are a lot of confounding factors.

It's something worth looking into but there has been a tendency to say too much and make assumptions. I think there is a general tendency in society at the moment to want to look at all difficulties through a racial lens, and the media in particular is inclined that way, even when it is a matter of fitting a square peg into a round hole.

The whole idea of saying it's BAME people who are more affected is stupid though - it's far too broad a category to make generalisations like that about.

I work as a vaccinator and the only groups I have have walk away from n appointment are BAME so yes they are putting themselves at risk through misinformation etc

an appointment*

@DeeCeeCherry

I dislike the "obesity" negative undercurrent too. What they're really saying is 'all Black people are fat'. Which of course, we arent.

It's also not quite recognised.
that (a) we aren't a monolith and (b) we know what vitamins are thanks.

Just something patronising and othering about the whole way it's spoken of, as if being healthy is un-natural to us.

If obesity is a risk factor then I definitely wouldn't think that risk solely falls on Black people...look around.

Well said!

YANBU that it has more to with socio-economic status and living condition than race (aka you won’t die of Covid because you are black) nut YABU to seem to imply that socio-economic status and living status don’t have a lot to do with race. Not sure about stats in the UK but I am in the US, here there isn’t an ounce of doubt that people of color die at a higher rate than their counterparts because they tend to live in poorer conditions than their white/Caucasian counterparts. It’s not being black that kills them but it’s definitely being black in America and what that implies and what that usually mean that have put them in a situation where they are statistically more at risk of dying of COVID. So yes, BAME are more at risk of dying of COVID-19 NOT because of race but because of the link between race and sociology-economic status and therefore health.

Also your race might impact the care you get, and how believed you are so, yes you might be more at risk of dying of COVID than a white woman with the same characteristics. Again, not because you are black but because how black people are often treated and seen by healthcare professional vs their white counterparts.

I don't think BAMEs are automatically at greater risk from a physical point of view. My hunch is it's partly down to poverty, partly down to culture, and partly down to psychology. The first two are obvious, both poverty and by cultural elements of the BAME community tend to have three or more generations sharing the same home. If young children are mixing regularly with old people, transmission will rise.

The psychological part is (I think) explained by the fact BAMEs are more likely to reject the vaccine and fall for anti-vaccine propaganda. If someone rejects scientific evidence and prefers to believe their friends on social media, if someone has a mistrust of authority when they tell them the vaccine is safe, they are more likely to be ignoring official advice (lockdown, isolation, handwashing) too - it's unlikely you'd trust the government on those things without question whilst refusing the vaccine.

They have just launched a tv advert aimed at BAME groups to urge them to get vaccinated.

How very dare they, eh? Is that whitesplaining and racist do you think?

As far as I understand even if you take out the environment factors and cultural components there is still a significant difference in outcomes. There may be a small links with vitamin D which disproportionately affects people with darker skin. But the biggest factor IMO is how people are treated differently by the health care system. Look at the outcomes for black mothers in maternity wards.

Is much of it also not lower vitamin D? BAME communities in sunnier climes are faring far better!

Everyone should get their vitamin D level tested

fish I don’t deny there is a huge issue there but that wouldn’t explain covid fatality rates

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

fish I don’t deny there is a huge issue there but that wouldn’t explain covid fatality rates

Why not?

@Haffiana

They have just launched a tv advert aimed at BAME groups to urge them to get vaccinated.

How very dare they, eh? Is that whitesplaining and racist do you think?

It´s neither but we all know they are doing so because they know that a big chunk of people of color simply do not trust authorities /government to have their best interest at heart. And who would blame them?

I am going to get vaccinated but my stepdad who is African and an immigrant doesn’t want to and doesn‘t trust the government when it comes to his health/keeping him safe and I don’t blame him one bit.

But that's the problem isn't it? People just state 'BAME people are more at risk'. Full stop. And either willfully or unknowingly omitting the full sentence, which is really 'BAME people in such and such conditions are more at risk' or even better, 'People in such and such conditions are more at risk'.

The first statement is unhelpful and causes unnecessary panic among BAME people, not to mention being suddenly seen as one who likely has Covid by non-BAME people just for being BAME. And as you know, some people will quickly start treating others as leprous given half a chance. This is one of those.

If the second or third statement was what was floating around, things would be clearer and people might even start asking questions such as 'why are BAME people in the US or UK in these conditions?' But I'm sure the government wouldn't want that to take over the general panic of all BAME people taking the jab just so they can get on with things and not have to sift between which ones are actually in more-at-risk conditions and which ones aren't. They may need to have a deeper, uncomfortable discussion if incomplete yet blanket statements weren't made.

That was in response to Linning.

It’s a hugely complex question and one that does need consideration to reduce the risks where they are heightened.

You may well not be at personal heightened risk, but many from minority groups are. That has to be reviewed and addressed if we are serious, as a country, about equality and health outcomes.

There is undoubtedly a higher proportion of black and Asan people dying or being seriously ill than white. That doesn’t mean the virus is more unkind to people in those groups, necessarily. It could be there is a genetic element, but no proof.

The greatest risk factor remains age. Then it would seem to be a disease of poverty for a number of reasons - people in poorer paid jobs needing to go to work to drive buses, cleaners, to work in shops etc. Many in poorer paid jobs are black.

There is anecdotal evidence of racism towards black and Asian staff with many reporting being made to work in red Covid19 areas of hospitals more frequently than their white counterparts. Add to this that locum and bank staff are more likely to be black or Asian; they are more likely to be employed in Covid19 areas too.

Then underlying health care issues such as diabetes prevalence or perhaps sickle cell. Consider darker skin colour making it harder to identify when someone is really unwell and consequent delays in treatment. Then add in black peoples symptoms being more likely to be dismissed by white staff - pain is much less recognised and treated when reported by black patients.

Your personal risk may not be heightened but the evidence base simply isn’t evolved enough to say. We do know black and Asian people are more likely to die and suffer serious complications.

@MindTheRiskPlease

But that's the problem isn't it? People just state 'BAME people are more at risk'. Full stop. And either willfully or unknowingly omitting the full sentence, which is really 'BAME people in such and such conditions are more at risk' or even better, 'People in such and such conditions are more at risk'.

The first statement is unhelpful and causes unnecessary panic among BAME people, not to mention being suddenly seen as one who likely has Covid by non-BAME people just for being BAME. And as you know, some people will quickly start treating others as leprous given half a chance. This is one of those.

If the second or third statement was what was floating around, things would be clearer and people might even start asking questions such as 'why are BAME people in the US or UK in these conditions?' But I'm sure the government wouldn't want that to take over the general panic of all BAME people taking the jab just so they can get on with things and not have to sift between which ones are actually in more-at-risk conditions and which ones aren't. They may need to have a deeper, uncomfortable discussion if incomplete yet blanket statements weren't made.

Again, I am not in the UK but In the US we are made clearly aware as to why BAME/POC are more at risk of getting COVID and how it has very little to do with POC being POC and all to do with how POC are and have been historically treated and the reality of systemic racism (which has put POC in the poorer end of the socio economic spectrum).

Not sure what the narrative is like in the UK but here we are definitely being told the truth, you just have some people who are happy to acknowledge it and others who refuse to accept there is a difference between POC and white folks and how they are treated in the medical field and reject all notion that POC are more at risks, but it’s not for lack of clear information as much as denial of bias and prejudices on their part.

I think there is a definite link between our inability to absorb vitamin D as effectively as Caucasians. David Davies has been discussing the vitamin D research in parliament and there have been some really good studies on it and I don’t understand why more isn’t being made of it by the government.

What I will say is I agree, I HATE the term BAME. Basically saying ‘non white’ But I have very little in common with the Bangladeshi community who have been hit very hard by Covid and the reasons are different for them. Although I do believe there are crossovers in terms of vit D absorption and general distrust of white hierarchy in medical knowledge.

@Linning Oh ok. I knew you were in the US as you said in your post but didn't realise it had been made clear there as to why such is the case. That's good then. If it was the same here, then it would be clearer for those of us in the UK.

[quote MindTheRiskPlease]@Linning Oh ok. I knew you were in the US as you said in your post but didn't realise it had been made clear there as to why such is the case. That's good then. If it was the same here, then it would be clearer for those of us in the UK.[/quote]
I am sure a year back it wouldn’t have been made but the whole BLM nationwide protests etc... in the last few months mean that the conditions/reality of POC is now, almost always on the forefront (not that it necessarily bring the much needed changes but it’s a tiny amount of progress).

I can’t see France (my homecountry) caring to run stats about POC and making a link so I think Europe in General Talks less about racism and seem to have convinced itself its old news. So not too surprised, there are more blanket statements there.

We were discussing vitamin D on lipstickalley (an African American forum) early last year. The American covid briefings had noted higher adverse outcomes in cities like Detroit amongst African Americans.
I took emotion out of it and have had my whole extended family on Vitamin C, D and Zinc for nearly a year. The politicisation and framing of the issue instead of a clear campaign to get people to test their levels likely led to death.
www.lipstickalley.com/threads/people-with-low-levels-of-vitamin-d-may-be-more-likely-to-catch-coronavirus-and-die-from-covid-19.3466243/

As many posters have said I think one of the factors, if there is a greater risk for 'BAME' people, is likely to be Vit D deficiency. I am white British but have Mediterranean colouring and I spend most winters in the UK fighting to get myself to normal Vit D levels. When I am low I seem to catch everything going, take ages to get over those colds/tummy bugs/flu and feel generally exhausted. If I struggle to get enough Vit D in our winters, and my skin is relatively light, would this not be even harder for someone with darker coloured skin? Wouldn't the chances of catching and not recovering well from Covid be increased?

I would advise everyone to take a good dose of vit d during the winter, regardless of skin tone. If it turns out long term not to be a factor then nothing has been lost anyway and you might feel better in general. If taking higher doses of vit d though, you will also need to take vit k2 and magnesium to stop any issues with calcium.

@OlympicProcrastinator

I think there is a definite link between our inability to absorb vitamin D as effectively as Caucasians. David Davies has been discussing the vitamin D research in parliament and there have been some really good studies on it and I don’t understand why more isn’t being made of it by the government.

What I will say is I agree, I HATE the term BAME. Basically saying ‘non white’ But I have very little in common with the Bangladeshi community who have been hit very hard by Covid and the reasons are different for them. Although I do believe there are crossovers in terms of vit D absorption and general distrust of white hierarchy in medical knowledge.

I agree with this.

Things I’ve read are suggesting a link to Vit D. It does need higher profile.