Abolishing the Monarcy.

[Helendee]

Good or bad idea and reasons for your opinion?
I don’t feel strongly either way but I am curious about what aspects of becoming a Republic are more beneficial than the UK’s stable current system.

The Queen essentially pays an income tax of 75-85% on her income from the Crown Estates (which is owned by whoever is monarch, it’s not her personal property)

The logic fail here is extreme - how does she "eseentially pay income tax" on it if it's not her personal property?

@IrisAnon,
"frankly it’s not the correct forum for a detailed academic response - but I will chuckle at your overly aggressive dialogue from behind your keyboard.
Your stats don’t take anything away from my point relating to land ownership - you are framing land ‘usage’. Totally different thing."

Amazing how the abolitionists suddenly retreat behind a facade of pseudo-insults and refuse to debate further when challenged.

I wasn't asking for a detail academic response, just some rational arguments for removing the monarchy.
I'm sorry you don't have the intellect to provide those and have rely on repeating the same old mantra in the hope that repetition will somehow make it valid.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

The Queen essentially pays an income tax of 75-85% on her income from the Crown Estates (which is owned by whoever is monarch, it’s not her personal property)

The logic fail here is extreme - how does she "eseentially pay income tax" on it if it's not her personal property?

There is no logic fail. You simply fail to grasp the fact that the Crown Estate is neither public nor personal property, but a third type of property- that owned by the ruling monarch with its own rules and rights.

Arrghhhhh !
This thread is now 678 posts long and so far I haven't seen one single rational argument for abolishing the monarchy.

I have asked, repeatedly, for explanation, clarification, expansion, elucidation of various points raised all to no avail.

I've been insulted, been snubbed, ignored given every excuse under the sun not to respond but still no valid reasons.

Make what you will of that

I've seen loads of them, Anita, perhaps we differ as to our understanding of 'rational'.

Anita appears to be reading this thread in a mirror she’s got things so arse-backwards.

@AnitaB888 because they cost money that could be better used elsewhere as we seem to have a shortage of public funds.

Because they don't offer a lot in return. Because they aren't great role models any more. Because our lives have moved on so far since E2 took the throne but nothing's changed their end.
All rational. You don't have to agree but they are rational.

They don’t cost money. They are net contributors to the U.K. Treasury. If you abolish the monarchy, no money will be gained or saved. Not even police protection or state functions because an elected head of state and their family would still require the same.

@PlanDeRaccordement

They don’t cost money. They are net contributors to the U.K. Treasury. If you abolish the monarchy, no money will be gained or saved. Not even police protection or state functions because an elected head of state and their family would still require the same.

Much as Tories who don't care if the Bedroom tax saves money (it doesn't) I don't care if it costs to abolish the Monarchy.

And frankly any amount in relation to the monarchy pales into meaningless when compared to £22 billion on a failed Track and Trace system (other examples are available).

And frankly any amount in relation to the monarchy pales into meaningless when compared to £22 billion on a failed Track and Trace system (other examples are available)

That’s pretty comprehensively demolished the cost argument.

Affront to democracy only works if they hold any power, which we all know they don’t.

I didn’t know they were ever expected to be role models. That leaves the world’s moved on since 1952, yet we still retain numerous institutions that were around then.

@VinylDetective I wouldn't particularly want to abolish, tbh. I can see why people do, is all. Fairly rational arguments that we don't all agree with.

I think the alternatives would be just as divisive.

Role model prob wrong phrase - they aren't beyond reproach. Very publicly not so. I guess they never were but were able to cover up in years gone by. And things "weren't done".

Loads of people still love them. Not just much older people either. The fascination remains!

Interesting to see if Charles does pare it back.

Why do we need a rational reason?
People no longer want to look up to people that are no longer respected. They no longer want to see people ride round in golden carriages and listen to the fact they spend more money on a dress than a family of 4’s monthly food bill. They don’t want to see them in the paper on their 4th holiday that year. These people are not there through merit.

We want the country brought up to date. We want equality and a meritocracy.

I don't really care if we have a show monarchy or elected head of state but what I want for this country is:

No effective power of review of law by the monarch (this has been shown to be what assent practically is with a number of examples of laws being tweaked to minimise the impact on royal interests).

A fully elected second chamber.

A written constitution.

I also see no real reason why the taxpayer should find quite so many royals tbh either.

So the queen and the immediate lot can stay as long as they finally stop interfering and as long as they don't stand in the way of the establishment of a proper democracy and constitution in this country.

@AnitaB888

Arrghhhhh ! This thread is now 678 posts long and so far I haven't seen one single rational argument for abolishing the monarchy.

I have asked, repeatedly, for explanation, clarification, expansion, elucidation of various points raised all to no avail.

I've been insulted, been snubbed, ignored given every excuse under the sun not to respond but still no valid reasons.

Make what you will of that

No, you have been given valid argument after valid argument by about 10 different posters and have posted non sequiturs, your own opinions and irrelevant links to each one.

Track and trace fiasco snd the Tory mafia is a completely separate issue. People drawing very wonky parallels again.

@HerbsnSpices some people don't want to look at golden carriages. Plenty still do. Will & Kate wedding day - there were parties & a bank holiday. People do like that! Plenty love looking at all the pomp and don't give any thought to them being above/below in deference etc. They aren't offended by it or annoyed.

[quote AnitaB888]@Bangable,
You cite Chile as a 'stable and progressive republic' - are you having a laugh?

Chile closed 2019 with the worst human rights crisis since General Augusto Pinochet´s regime. Massive demonstrations began in mid-October in response to an increase on public transport fares. Given the context of the high levels of inequality in the country, the protests (most of them peaceful) expanded to include demands for a more just society in which the state guarantees rights such as health, water, education and social security. Nevertheless, demonstrations were faced with severe levels of repression by state forces that attempted to justify their use of violence against protesters by claiming that these measures were necessary to protect infrastructure and private property from being damaged or vandalised.
After the social outburst, President Sebastián Piñera declared on October 18 a state of emergency in some areas of the country. For ten days, certain rights and freedoms were suspended, and the army was deployed on the streets to carry out citizen control and public security. By the end of 2019, protests continued and the number of victims of human rights violations, mainly by National Police (Carabineros), reached into the thousands

Development projects continued to go ahead without the free, prior and informed consent of affected Indigenous peoples and the so-called "sacrifice zone" communities continued to face environmental devastation due to industrial activity. The government proposed reforms to the Indigenous Law and initiated a process of consultation with Indigenous peoples throughout Chile. Nevertheless, this process was criticized for not being conducted in good faith or respecting Indigenous cultures, which led to a suspension of the process.

I could write more but I think I've made my point.[/quote]
I don’t have time to read lengthy rants but I will inform you that all countries have their political issues, even those considered to be the most progressive. Further, having lived in Santiago for three years in my early forties, you are misinformed. Chile is a progressive country, known in SA as “The Switzerland of South America”. There are many reasons for his. Chile is 24th on the list of the Global Peace Index. This country has the lowest level of corruption in all of Latin America and the highest level of economic development. Chile is in 33rd place on the list of the Press Freedom Index. Chile is very economically and socially developed, on a level that can be compared to many European countries, its a v safe, modern county. I stand by my comment. You simply dont know what you are talking about, so be educated by those on this thread that do 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Nohomemadecandles

"because they cost money that could be better used elsewhere as we seem to have a shortage of public funds.

Because they don't offer a lot in return. Because they aren't great role models any more. Because our lives have moved on so far since E2 took the throne but nothing's changed their end."

All rational.

You don't have to agree but they are rational."

Thank you for those.

@Bangable,
You lost me after "lengthy rants"

If you want to have your arguments taken seriously, loose the insults.

@AnitaB888

Arrghhhhh ! This thread is now 678 posts long and so far I haven't seen one single rational argument for abolishing the monarchy.

I have asked, repeatedly, for explanation, clarification, expansion, elucidation of various points raised all to no avail.

I've been insulted, been snubbed, ignored given every excuse under the sun not to respond but still no valid reasons.

Make what you will of that

I've been insulted, been snubbed, ignored given every excuse under the sun not to respond but still no valid reasons

You have been given a whole host of valid, sensible, intelligent, practical, insightful and rational reasons.

[quote AnitaB888]@Bangable,
You lost me after "lengthy rants"

If you want to have your arguments taken seriously, loose the insults.[/quote]
Lose

@Bangable

'Lose'

Brace yourself folks, the grammar police are working this thread !! Get your syntax in order and your etymology polished up !

Otherwise it's the naughty step for all of us !

You have been given a whole host of valid, sensible, intelligent, practical, insightful and rational reasons

There are about a dozen posts on this thread that fit that description, none of which are in favour of abolishing the monarchy.

There was a very insightful post several pages back outlining exactly how complex it would be to get rid of the monarchy which was completely ignored. Equally there’s a plethora of nasty, bitchy little comments about the monarchy and other posters.

Personally I’d be very happy to see it pared back to a Scandinavian model and I expect to see that in my lifetime.

Track and trace fiasco snd the Tory mafia is a completely separate issue. People drawing very wonky parallels again.

Not really. If people are happy to piss £22 billion away on something that failed to a mate of the PM, they'll happily accept a few million missing when we dump the Monarchy, assuming posters claiming they make money are correct.

“There was a very insightful post several pages back outlining exactly how complex it would be to get rid of the monarchy which was completely ignore”

Would you be sympathetic of a similar argument made by, say Saudi Arabia, for not modernising?

Equally if people are happy to piss £22 billion away on something that failed to a mate of the PM, they're unlikely to balk at a fraction of that amount spent on the monarchy.