How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

For anyone not sure what the issue is

The workers involved either feel they have no other choice, or are brought into the country on a false premise

They do have choices. They can stay home, but they want to make money. This kind of money is just not possible for them to make in their home
countries.

There is a risk of getting a bad employer, but they take those risks for the bigger rewards.

Forced Labour is obviously not unique to the UAE, but to prevent forced labour you need both laws, and robust enforcement of laws. The UAE is not a democracy and the leader does not even respect the freedom of his own children

Real democracies are few outside the West, but you can lobby them to make conditions better for
their migrant work force.

MsTodd’s linked article is over a decade old, the Gulf has actually made a lot of progress since then. I won’t say where in the Gulf I’m at, but migrant workers certainly don’t live in tents here.

They do have choices. They can stay home, but they want to make money. This kind of money is just not possible for them to make in their home countries.

That is not a choice. Hence the concept of economic refugees.

MsTodd’s linked article is over a decade old, the Gulf has actually made a lot of progress since then

Without enforcement of laws there is no change.

@merrymouse

They do have choices. They can stay home, but they want to make money. This kind of money is just not possible for them to make in their home countries.

That is not a choice. Hence the concept of economic refugees.

How is this not a choice? You can stay behind in your home country and continue to live in poverty.

Just like you can move to London and make good money or stay in rural bumfuck with few prospects. Your choice.

That is not a choice. Hence the concept of economic refugees

Maybe the countries where they come from should provide jobs and good wages then the workers wouldn’t have to work in the Gulf.

@merrymouse of course it's a choice. "Economic refugee" is a pretty subjective term. The desire for a better standard of living is pretty ubiquitous in humans but that doesn't mean that people aren't making choices about what they want and how they are going to get it.

I’m not sure I would use the word choice when if you don’t go the options are living in terrible poverty as so few jobs around

It also gives many a freedom that they wouldn’t have at home to live a more without the constant watchful eye of extended family again something not many of us can not relate to

I also wouldn't holiday there. I can't separate out human rights and women's rights from where I choose to spend my money.

A friend of mine is Nigerian, one of 9 children. 6 of the siblings live in Nigeria working as small farmers, dress makers and hair stylists. None are wealthy but they eat, have somewhere to live and their children attend school. 3 have emigrated to the States for a better life. Are the 3 who emigrated "economic refugees" escaping terrible poverty in a country with few jobs? Are the 6 that stayed victims of poverty, or trapped, or unambitious? Or are they a group of people making choices about how to best live their lives?

@merrymouse of course it's a choice.

You are wrong.

Feed your family or don’t feed your family is not really a choice.

See also families forced to give up children to orphanages or worse because the only alternative is starvation.

A friend of mine is Nigerian, one of 9 children. 6 of the siblings live in Nigeria working as small farmers, dress makers and hair stylists.

Not sure how that is relevant - you are describing people who do have a choice because they can meet basic needs.

And again, you are confused about the difference between forced labour and economy migration.

Maybe the countries where they come from should provide jobs and good wages then the workers wouldn’t have to work in the Gulf.

Yes, but that doesn’t justify treatment in the Gulf.

This problem isn’t unique to the Gulf - forced exists everywhere. The difference is the extent of the problem and will to deal with the problem

‘Forced Labour exists everywhere)

Yes, but that doesn’t justify treatment in the Gulf

Sure but if the migrant workers have to opt for appalling working conditions in Dubai or starvation at home then the home country is at fault for allowing its citizens to starve.
Why aren’t people up in arms about that?

@UsedUpUsername

lol your willingness to live there or not isn’t the standard here.

This makes no sense.

@merrymouse

A friend of mine is Nigerian, one of 9 children. 6 of the siblings live in Nigeria working as small farmers, dress makers and hair stylists.

Not sure how that is relevant - you are describing people who do have a choice because they can meet basic needs.

No it’s very relevant.

We are not talking about starvation. They aren’t starving in South Asia. But they also can’t make the same kind of money that can be had in the UAE.

They put up with less-than-ideal employment conditions so they can take the money to put their kids through good schools, bigger homes or even open their own businesses.

No one is forcing them to leave their home countries.

@merrymouse

A friend of mine is Nigerian, one of 9 children. 6 of the siblings live in Nigeria working as small farmers, dress makers and hair stylists.

Not sure how that is relevant - you are describing people who do have a choice because they can meet basic needs.

It probably isn’t a choice. In many countries if you stop working rural land you lose it. It’s often the only asset for entire families.

I don’t think my family who have worked in Dubai give it much thought that they earned less that a citizen might
They were still being exploited. Because they accepted lower wages because they were higher than home. It's Dubai exploiting these people and their home countries for labour. They won't accept that workers take their families with them.

@YouShouldLeave

Maybe same way there are women who watch porn.

Only thinking about number one.

This.

Lweji like we have allowed workers to be exploited

They wouldn’t care because it’s not on their radar they just need to earn money to send home which it allowed them

Have you had to worry how you would afford rent, medical bills, food, as a constant way of life not just for the short term that’s reality there is no safety net

I'm not criticising the workers. But they are being exploited. It may be better for them, but the nationals benefit from the low paid immigrants. And yes, most countries do exploit immigrants from lower income countries. Like companies exploit workers in times of high unemployment.
It is all and still exploitation.

I haven’t said it isn’t

But you are viewing things from a very different point of view They can’t earn that money at home there isn’t opportunities at home like we have here. Dubai (Singapore is another country) offers a life that is good for them really good in comparison to what they would have at home why would they view that or care of earning less than a local they wouldn’t

@Lweji

I'm not criticising the workers. But they are being exploited. It may be better for them, but the nationals benefit from the low paid immigrants. And yes, most countries do exploit immigrants from lower income countries. Like companies exploit workers in times of high unemployment. It is all and still exploitation.

I also earn far less than the locals do.

And I don’t give a shit, because I earn far more than in my home country, especially as it is tax free. You wouldn’t call me exploited in any way, but your technical definition would.