How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

I responded to a specific poster earlier in reference to Dubai and slave labour.

I wonder how many people would have been so keen to holiday in the UK, when in spite of slavery ending 200 years ago, the UK Government was still paying descendants of slave traders families compensation for their loss of income up till a few years ago.

The profits from treating black people so inhumanely...tossing them overboard like trash...abusing them etc has made the UK what it is today....the slave trade stopped, but the continued payments say a lot about the UK.

People who holidayed here were putting their money into the UK economy....some of which invariably went for slave traders compensation.

That it took almost 200 years to pay off the 'compensation', is an indication of how much money it was.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/taxpayers-still-paying-british-slave-12019829.amp

Just as in Dubai something being legal doesn't make it right....these payments being legal, don't make it right. It's shameful.

I know this isn't a thread about slavery...but the continued payments endorse human suffering.

I have an old schoolfriend who has moved to Dubai. They have a daughter who is about 3. Wtf. Why? Why would you want to bring a child, a female one at that, up somewhere so hideous?

But they do post lots of #preciousmemories on the beach so presumably they feel it's all worth it.

What about the US, China, Russia, India, etc?

One of these is not like the others 🙄

As far as the issue of women specifically, I think that it's fairly common for people to visit in places that they may have some serious disagreement with elements of the culture. There is an element of, you are visiting a place where people may think quite differently about some things and visiting does not mean you approve of them. Whether they are laws enacted by the government of social norms.

And of course not everyone living there from that culture will agree.

But they will have much the same attitude whether you visit or not - you are not causing or enabling that. Not to say people should not feel squeamish, but if that sort of things bother a person they would not be able to visit many places with laws or beliefs they believe are wrong.

On the other hand, the labour situation in Dubai is a different thing. Any tourist depends on what is basically slave labour for the enjoyment of their holiday, even if it is out of sight. Their tourist dollars directly go into that labour arrangement. That's contributing directly to economic exploitation.

@Baluchistan95

my DH doesn't ponder the terrible conditions of male foreign workers there. This may surprise you, but the travel agent we use has never brought this issue to our attention.

My point is, this is nothing to ‘ponder’ or that has to be revealed by a travel agent. You go on the squeaky-clean and safe underground, you see impoverished and exhausted migrant workers - 90% Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian - packed into train carriages like sardines at set times of the day. The bulk of the labour force. It’s ostensibly hard to miss.

It’s hard to stomach raising children somewhere where the colour of your skin is a clear marker and determinant of the kind of job you do. Cleaners, drivers, cooks, housemaids are only ever of a certain race. It’s a visible optic and a very ugly one.

All of us face choices about whether to support inhumane regimes and explotative organisations everyday. From going on holiday to destinations that are built on slave labour and female oppression to using products that negatively affect the environment. Different people have different bars of what's acceptable. Every decision you make can be held up to a similar scrutiny. I think it is an easy type of snobbery to judge people who go on holiday to dubai. But then i feel it also for people who go on holiday or work in thailand (went to bangkok on a work conference and was very uncomfortable with the squalor back to back with luxury for westerners). But i am no saint, i make my own hypocritical and inconsistent choices too. That's the reality of the grossly unfair world we live in.

I suspect that the tourist industry is a side earner for dubai. Not going on holiday to somewhere you were never going to go to in the first place won't really make a difference. What about not using petrol produced in the gulf? Or products made from petrochemicals originating there? (Note: not remotely possible).

Can I just add the situation in Turkey is dire at the moment. I used to live and work there a good few years ago, but would never go back there now.
So many innocent people are being locked up in jail. Men and women journalists, doctors, teachers, lecturers, soldiers, dentists etc. I personally know of several, and one genuinely lovely, kind welcoming family I know drowned trying to escape. Their youngest was just three .
In the jails men and women are being tortured, raped, and denied medicines. Pregnant women are taken for forced c-sections. They aren’t even told if their baby is alive or dead. I cannot understand how this is not in the media more. It is not a big secret. I know Turkey is just one country and I might be particularly sensitive to it because it is people I know suffering but why are we turning a blind eye to so many people, in so many counties suffering so terribly?

@UsedUpUsername

What about the US, China, Russia, India, etc?

One of these is not like the others 🙄

Do you mean the US? I wouldn’t live there if you paid me, it has so much blood on its hands.

Totally agree OP.

And from a purely selfish perspective, the thought of being in a country where I am not considered to have any rights in comparison to men gives me the fear, I would never go to a country like that.

I wouldn't go to Turkey now either, despite having been there in the past.

Having just watched Jack Ryan I won’t be visiting Turkey either. The human trafficking from there is appalling.

This is one of those threads where what people say on MN is very different to what they do in real life.

On the other hand, the labour situation in Dubai is a different thing. Any tourist depends on what is basically slave labour for the enjoyment of their holiday, even if it is out of sight. Their tourist dollars directly go into that labour arrangement. That's contributing directly to economic exploitation

How is it economic exploitation when they get paid a better wage than they could ever expect in their home country?

Talk about first-world myopia. Millions of South Asian families depend on these workers and the income they receive.

Sure, I think it’s important to improve conditions and keep reporting on these issues to force the government hand. But it’s not ‘slave labour’. There is actual slave labour in the world and this ain’t it.

[quote Cadent]@UsedUpUsername

What about the US, China, Russia, India, etc?

One of these is not like the others 🙄

Do you mean the US? I wouldn’t live there if you paid me, it has so much blood on its hands.[/quote]
lol your willingness to live there or not isn’t the standard here.

I’ve lived in China for years (and loved it!) but it’s a human rights disaster ....

How is it economic exploitation when they get paid a better wage than they could ever expect in their home country?

Economic exploitation (exploiting different wage expectations around the world) is not the same as forced labour.

Forced labour is when the worker cannot leave, e.g. because an employer holds a passport or charges the worker excessive accommodation/transport charges that the worker will never be able to repay.

Forced labour exists all over the world, but the kafala system institutionalises abuse.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system

How is it economic exploitation when they get paid a better wage than they could ever expect in their home country?

It's economic exploitation if they get less than a national would for the same work.

Considering British men can successfully use the ‘i just lost it’ defence or choking their wives to death, I question why any person who loves women comes here. Even for Muslim women being in the UAE or India often comes with a lot more freedoms than parts of Bradford or Birmingham.

I don’t think my family who have worked in Dubai give it much thought that they earned less that a citizen might

It allowed them to support family back at home and they loved Dubai. Our standards of exploitation, harassment, workers rights are different they have a need to earn money and Dubai allowed them to and to live a good life (a very glamours life) in comparison to home

Those that worked on construction sites are viewed as lower class even by fellow Asians.

Is that right no, should they be paid better and have better working/living conditions absolutely but don’t think all Asian workers think they are exploited or don’t value what working in Dubai has offered them

One is now in America can’t send as much money home and is stuck and would return to Dubai in a heartbeat as it’s closer to home

Forced labour is when the worker cannot leave, e.g. because an employer holds a passport or charges the worker excessive accommodation/transport charges that the worker will never be able to repay

These experiences can happen in the Gulf, but it is not the typical experience. No one would come if you actually left poorer than you arrived.

The long lines I see at the exchange offices every weekend are the migrant workers sending money home to their families. Imagine how much worse off they’d be if they couldn’t work in the Gulf.

It really is better than staying home in miserable poverty.

It's economic exploitation if they get less than a national would for the same work

I don’t know how much you’d have to pay an Emirati to lay a brick ... but this ‘exploitation’ works to the benefit of both the UAE and the migrant worker.

They aren’t slave labour, but they do need better regulation to make sure that their employers pay them on time (getting paid on time is actually the biggest issue I see here in the Gulf, as is the difficult process of changing employers).

Ffs I can’t believe I’m defending the UAE here, but people are blathering on about things they know nothing about.

I wouldn't go there myself for the reasons you cited, that and I would be committing a crime if I went with dp.

I think people are applying our standards (a country where we Compared to vast majority of the worlds population are very spoilt by we have free at the point of service Heath care, education and a good welfare system, laws that protect us) to other countries where it simply doesn’t apply

And we have exploration of workers here freedom of movement (or did) And zero contract hours has allowed for that (set up to support business not just to support workers)

And of course the snobbery that is always on threads about Dubai on MN

These experiences can happen in the Gulf, but it is not the typical experience. No one would come if you actually left poorer than you arrived.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of forced labour. The workers involved either feel they have no other choice, or are brought into the country on a false premise.

Forced Labour is obviously not unique to the UAE, but to prevent forced labour you need both laws, and robust enforcement of laws. The UAE is not a democracy and the leader does not even respect the freedom of his own children.

They aren’t slave labour, but they do need better regulation to make sure that their employers pay them on time (getting paid on time is actually the biggest issue I see here in the Gulf, as is the difficult process of changing employers).

These would be the conditions that allow forced labour to thrive.

"The workers involved feel they have no other choice"

How so @merrymouse? I m not defending working conditions in the UAE but clearly people do have other choices and chose this because they feel it's the best for them.