To ask why religion is declining in Britain - Part 2

[Buccanarab]

I don't know if there's already a second thread on this but couldn't see one and the first one filled up as I was typing something so stated a new one.

If there is a 2nd one admin feel free to delete/move this one.

Link to 1st thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4161163-To-ask-why-religion-is-declining-in-Britain

The secular regimes of Pol Pot (Marxist), Mao (Communist) and Stalin (Communist) tortured and killed people in the 20th Century on a scale never before imagined.

And yet the good book tells us that God too was responsible for and ordered genocide on a sweeping scale.

@Beseigedbykillersquirrels

Prisoners can have religious marriage ceremonies in jail, as is their right. Yet a loving, committed, secure, relationship between two Christian people of the same sex isn't allowed by the Christian church. They are human beings for goodness sake.

That’s not quite true. The CoE won’t marry same sex couples. Other Christian denominations will.

[quote AnitaB888]@HollyGoLoudly1

OK I'll bite....

What genocide was fuelled by religion?

'Doing something wrong is not mitigated by someone else doing something worse'.

True but singling out religion as the sole perpetrator of human rights abuses doesn't wash either.

France has a secular government yet they banned the burkha and Macron's stormtroopers are cracking the skulls of the Gilet Jaune, and other French citizens, every weekend, because they have the temerity to protest against unfair taxation.

It is disingenuous to argue that removing religion from government will solve all perceived problems with inequality, privilege, and discrimination.[/quote]
I'm not trying to get you to bite, I'm responding to comments you have made.

The Holocaust is probably the most famous example of systematic killing on the basis of religion.

I don't think anyone has said religion is the 'sole perpetrator' but I am happy to stand corrected if I have missed a comment from someone. It is A perpetrator though and has been since records began.

Nor have I said that ALL inequality will be solved, but SOME will. Religion should not be part of government.

What genocide was fuelled by religion?

Well, there are the ones actioned by the big man himself, namely the great flood and the ten plagues...

There have been many, many religiously motivated genocides. Massacre of the Hugenots (excuse my spelling), Mary Tudor's persecution of Protestants then Elizabeth's persecution of Catholics, the Crusades, the expulsion (and forced conversion & mass murder) of Jews from Spain by Ferdinand & Isabella to name a few

I am thinking of joining a church. I wondered if there was going to be a decrease in attendance due to people leaving because of Brexit.

Because people are more educated these days.

@AlwaysLatte

Because people are more educated these days.

This was soundly disabused quite early in the first thread. There are plenty of examples of highly educated, highly intelligent people with religious faith.

@HollyGoLoudly1

"The Holocaust is probably the most famous example of systematic killing on the basis of religion."

So, if you are to argue that religion has caused genocides then are you saying that the Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves? If so you are on very dodgy ground here.

@RaidersoftheLostAardvark
Those events you cite are certainly horrific but not classed (in my book anyway) as 'genocides.
If we move forward into the 20th Century there are very few genocides that have a religious flavour. Sometimes they were disputes over secular matters but were fought along religious lines eg
the Bosnian War

So if Jewish people weren’t murdered for being Jewish, why did the Nazi party decide to brutally murder millions of Jewish people?

@stripesnomore

"I am thinking of joining a church. I wondered if there was going to be a decrease in attendance due to people leaving because of Brexit."

Not sure why you would think this? Can you explain?

So, if you are to argue that religion has caused genocides then are you saying that the Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves? If so you are on very dodgy ground here.

Obviously that not what I'm saying. At all. And I suspect you know that.

I won't be replying to your twisted nonsense anymore since you are determined to butt heads rather than debate things rationally. Cheerio 👋🏻

@HollGoLoudly1

"Religion should not be part of government."

How is it part of government?

And if so, what should it be replaced with ?

@HollyGoLoudly1
"I won't be replying to your twisted nonsense anymore since you are determined to butt heads rather than debate things rationally."

I'm sorry you feel that way, and would rather trade insults than put forward a reasoned argument.
If your arguments can't stand to be challenged, then they are maybe flawed?

@SimonJT
"So if Jewish people weren’t murdered for being Jewish, why did the Nazi party decide to brutally murder millions of Jewish people?"

No-one is disputing the fact that they were murdered. That wasn't the argument.
Someone said that religion caused wars/genocide and used the Holocaust as an example. (A poor example actually as the action was brought about by a secular state)
So I asked if the poster believed that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves, where insults flew, dummies got spat out and the poster left the discussion.
A better example would have been the War in Bosnia where the dispute was over land but fought along religious lines ie. Moslem v Eastern Orthodox.

HTH

You’re so good at avoiding answering the actual questions posters put to you, have you considered a career in politics?

Nice use of a slur in your post as well, very classy.

Anita, because many people from Eastern Europe were attending church but some were leaving the U.K. due to Brexit.

@SimonJT

"You’re so good at avoiding answering the actual questions posters put to you, have you considered a career in politics?

Nice use of a slur in your post as well, very classy."

What questions are you referring to?
What "slur"?

[Confused]

Anita, I understood your point. Religious people being persecuted by people inspired by secular ideologies are not wars caused by religion.

Just as the Nazis murdering gay people doesn’t mean that homosexuality causes genocid

@Stripesnomore

"Anita, because many people from Eastern Europe were attending church but some were leaving the U.K. due to Brexit."

I thought that be what you meant but I wasn't sure, that's why I asked.

I'm afraid I can't answer your question because I don't live in an area with a significant Eastern European population - sorry.

@Stripesnomore

" Religious people being persecuted by people inspired by secular ideologies are not wars caused by religion.

Just as the Nazis murdering gay people doesn’t mean that homosexuality causes genocide"

Absolutely - plain logic, not 'twisted nonsense' as some other poster would have it !

I just do not have any need for religion in my life. I have ethical principles and morals, I don't need the community support and am not a believer in terms of the faith aspect.

I think my position is quite common, religion has little/no relevance for me.

Just to clarify for the sake of those intent on misunderstanding me (deliberately it seems).

My words were twisted into complete nonsense. That is the 'twisted nonsense' to which I referred. Of course I do not think the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves. It was an utterly offensive and deliberately provocative accusation, so I attempted to bow out of the conversation. There were no dummies spat. How rude! There were no 'insults flying'. If you think stating that you twisted my words into nonsense is an insult, you have lead a very sheltered life indeed.

I agree with a PP, go get yourself a career in politics, your avoidance tactics and spin would be impressive if they weren't so insulting.

Ive just read it holly

If its any consolation i didnt read your post in that way and i think its a massive stretch to put any further meaning on your statement