To ask why religion is declining in Britain - Part 2

[Buccanarab]

I don't know if there's already a second thread on this but couldn't see one and the first one filled up as I was typing something so stated a new one.

If there is a 2nd one admin feel free to delete/move this one.

Link to 1st thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4161163-To-ask-why-religion-is-declining-in-Britain

@CathyorClaire

"As a matter of interest is the church you attend vibrant, buzzing and attracting newcomers in droves?"

We don't attract newcomers in 'droves' but we have a steady stream of new members, usually the children & parents from the local C of E school with which we have a good relationship. Also people who retire to the area.
There is a Mass every day, Matins on Sunday and sung Evensong on Sunday pm. We have a full choir, choirmaster, two organists and the Priest is supported by 2 retired clergy.
We have a Crucifer, a Thurifer, a Boat Boy, Acolytes, and Lector for processions.
There is a full compliment of bellringers who practice every Wed pm and the bells are rung every Sunday prior to service , as well as for Weddings, Royal Weddings, New Years Eve etc
We fundraise by all the usual means, coffee mornings, bookstall, flower festival, Christmas Tree Festival. etc etc
There is a Sunday School and the children take part in a Nativity Play every year. There is a mother & baby/toddler group every week.
The church has a loo, is disabled-friendly and dog friendly. (Dog owners can sit with their dogs in the back pews)

I hope that answers your question?

[quote AnitaB888]@Hooth00t
"Why should they pay taxes to support an organisation that discriminates against them?"

Oh dear, someone else who hasn't read my post where I said
Churches are self-supporting (although they can ask for grants for major repairs)

and here is how the C of E is funded_

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_and_finances_of_the_Church_of_England#:~:text=Donations%20comprise%20its%20largest%20source,of%20around%20%C2%A3900%20million.&text=There%20is%20no%20other%20gov[/quote]
Doesn't change the fact that the state religion can discriminate against same sex couples. In fact they are not legally allowed to marry them.

Hooth00t,

"Doesn't change the fact that the state religion can discriminate against same sex couples. In fact they are not legally allowed to marry them"

That wasn't your original point, so stop changing the argument just so you can bang your particular drum. You said it was unfair for LGBTs to pay taxes for something they felt excluded from. I've just shown that it isn't the case.

And why should it matter? LGBT couples can enter a Civil Partnership which gives them the same legal protection as a heterosexual marriage.

If I went to a Synagogue I would not allowed to sit with my husband, as women sit separately.
Mosques have different prayer times for men and women and separate doors for them to use.

All religious organisations have rules. All clubs have rules. All schools have rules.

If you don't like it, then stop posting here and start writing to your MP and complain about it.

BTW. I understand that the Unitarian Church conducts same-sex marriages.

If God is omnipotent he is not compassionate
If God is compassionate he is not omnipotent.

And why should it matter? LGBT couples can enter a Civil Partnership which gives them the same legal protection as a heterosexual

If that isn't the biggest "LGBT aren't welcome in Christianity" I don't know what is. There are plenty of gay couples who, despite the condemnation of their relationship, have very strong faith and are in secure, loving relationships. A pair of non-religious people can get married in the church as long as they're a man and a woman, but a pair of same-sex people in a loving, committed relationship aren't welcome or allowed to have that recognised within their faith. I think that's really sad

Neither the unitarian Church nor Judaism are the state religion, and are not legally banned from conducting same sex marriages.

I can't understand the people who say that they know God exists because he's helped them in some way.
"I've recovered from cancer/survived being hit by a bus/won the lottery when I was on the breadline/conceived against the odds because of God."

So, what did you have which all the people dying of cancer, crushed by buses, stuck in poverty and struggling with infertility didn't. What did God deign fit to save in you that wasn't worth it in a child dead of Leukemia?

Prisoners can have religious marriage ceremonies in jail, as is their right. Yet a loving, committed, secure, relationship between two Christian people of the same sex isn't allowed by the Christian church. They are human beings for goodness sake.

Hhhmmm let me think,

Maybe it's gay men getting flung off rooftops in the Middle East or being put in concentration camps in Chechnya.
Maybe it's women getting flogged in the Middle East for not covering up at all times or shock horror being in a car with a man other than her husband. Or women in England claiming it's their religious right to cover up as much as they jolly well want to. Or is it the right wing in American bible belts that make others queasy. Or is it all that it's always just been a way to coerce people into behaving a certain way to keep a country going. Maybe the masses are sick to death at all the blood spilt in the past and today in the 21st century all in the name of religion. And you are questioning why it's not that popular?

@AnitaB888 And why should it matter?

Because marriage is a holy sacrament before God, and your organisation doesn't allow some people to commit that way. Of course we don't feel welcome! And you're so dismissive about the people outside your group too.

[quote AnitaB888]@CathyorClaire

"As a matter of interest is the church you attend vibrant, buzzing and attracting newcomers in droves?"

We don't attract newcomers in 'droves' but we have a steady stream of new members, usually the children & parents from the local C of E school with which we have a good relationship. Also people who retire to the area.
There is a Mass every day, Matins on Sunday and sung Evensong on Sunday pm. We have a full choir, choirmaster, two organists and the Priest is supported by 2 retired clergy.
We have a Crucifer, a Thurifer, a Boat Boy, Acolytes, and Lector for processions.
There is a full compliment of bellringers who practice every Wed pm and the bells are rung every Sunday prior to service , as well as for Weddings, Royal Weddings, New Years Eve etc
We fundraise by all the usual means, coffee mornings, bookstall, flower festival, Christmas Tree Festival. etc etc
There is a Sunday School and the children take part in a Nativity Play every year. There is a mother & baby/toddler group every week.
The church has a loo, is disabled-friendly and dog friendly. (Dog owners can sit with their dogs in the back pews)

I hope that answers your question? [/quote]
But surely the reason you have a steady stream of attendees and a good relationship with parents and children at the local CofE school is because they have to attend church regularly to ensure a place at that school?

Churches our way are so empty that the vicar has to rotate between several churches.

"But surely the reason you have a steady stream of attendees and a good relationship with parents and children at the local CofE school is because they have to attend church regularly to ensure a place at that school?"

If they don't want to attend the C of E School they could go to the State School down the road.

I have no idea what the criteria are for the school. '(Regularly' could be once a month.)

Maybe the school is popular because it's rated 'Excellent' by OFSTED
Maybe because the Priest works hard in the community.
Maybe because the staff are dynamic.
Maybe it's the PFTA
"All parents, guardians and relatives of children at StXs are invited to become involved with the Parent, Friends and Teachers Association.
The Association organizes fun and fund-raising events for the children of the school such as school discos, beetle-drives, summer fayres and Christmas competitions as well as a variety of sponsored events. All money raised is used for the children, to fund trips and buy equipment. This last year money was also donated towards the cost of improving the playground environment, prizes and guest speakers".

Why are you so keen to belittle something that works for the community?

It doesnt count as self supporting if swindling the lonely and desperate is a significant basis of wealth. The church is manipulative and full of scheming bastards extracting money from the vulnerable and mentally unstable. No one with a conscious or true morals would associate themselves with an institution formed on lies and abuse.

@Beseigedbykillersquirrels

Why are you still here venting about this?

Instead of your rambling obsessive postings here why not set about getting the law changed?

It never ceases to amaze me how many people moan from morning until night on these pages about everything that's wrong in the UK/world/their lives but won't get off their backsides and do something about it.

Stop posting and write to your Bishop or something but stop bending my ear'ole about things I can do nothing about.

@B33Fr33

"It doesnt count as self supporting if swindling the lonely and desperate is a significant basis of wealth. The church is manipulative and full of scheming bastards extracting money from the vulnerable and mentally unstable. No one with a conscious or true morals would associate themselves with an institution formed on lies and abuse."

Then don't associate yourself with it then, if you feel like that - job done.

@AnitaB888 weirdly, you seem to think that you are the only other person on this thread? You've just taken it upon yourself to be the (embarrassingly ill-imformed) gatekeeper of the thread. I'm not always talking to you personally.
Also, you have absolutely no idea what I do to improve the rights of minorities so pipe down. Know what I don't do though? Join, support and defend baby raping, money hungry, morally bankrupt misogynistic, homophobic institutions.

I don't. But I also think it's massively important that state funding is cut to every single religious based or backed group. All of them. As I am sick of the government subsidising the indoctrination of children into abusive corrupt institutions. Children should be be protected from people of "faith".

@Beseigedbykillersquirrels

"Know what I don't do though? Join, support and defend baby raping, money hungry, morally bankrupt misogynistic, homophobic institutions".

You don't want to debate do you - just have a pop at others who have different views to yourself?
OK fine, I'm done with your ill-informed, predjudiced, ranting, OCD posts.
Have a nice day

I hope that answers your question?

It sounds like there's a lot laid on for the faithful while the faithless are welcome to sub it, TBH.

I can't see much moral difference between taking their money at a coffee morning and using it to maintain the building and taking their money in exchange for a pretty wedding venue and using it for the same purpose especially when the church itself expressly allows for said wedding.

Any insincerity in the vows is surely a matter for their own conscience alone.

Even Jesus himself talks about splinters and planks...

@MissingLinker

I can't understand the people who say that they know God exists because he's helped them in some way. "I've recovered from cancer/survived being hit by a bus/won the lottery when I was on the breadline/conceived against the odds because of God."

So, what did you have which all the people dying of cancer, crushed by buses, stuck in poverty and struggling with infertility didn't. What did God deign fit to save in you that wasn't worth it in a child dead of Leukemia?

The all purpose get-out clause is that God moves in mysterious ways. If that fails to convince, Satan's in the frame.

We should just rejoice that God has the time and energy to drop a new job, house or parking space into the lap of a believer.

Because it's a made up story

@AnitaB888

"But surely the reason you have a steady stream of attendees and a good relationship with parents and children at the local CofE school is because they have to attend church regularly to ensure a place at that school?"

If they don't want to attend the C of E School they could go to the State School down the road.

I have no idea what the criteria are for the school. '(Regularly' could be once a month.)

Maybe the school is popular because it's rated 'Excellent' by OFSTED
Maybe because the Priest works hard in the community.
Maybe because the staff are dynamic.
Maybe it's the PFTA
"All parents, guardians and relatives of children at StXs are invited to become involved with the Parent, Friends and Teachers Association.
The Association organizes fun and fund-raising events for the children of the school such as school discos, beetle-drives, summer fayres and Christmas competitions as well as a variety of sponsored events. All money raised is used for the children, to fund trips and buy equipment. This last year money was also donated towards the cost of improving the playground environment, prizes and guest speakers".

Why are you so keen to belittle something that works for the community?

Maybe your school is so popular because it's very strict, insists on parental attendance at church , which attracts a certain class of parent, and is able to contribute to school funds? Maybe the church school has a middle class cachet ? Maybe the church school relies on a certain class of pupil whose parents are led through the nose? Maybe the other state school is in an area that has a higher level of pupils in receipt of Pupil Premium or is in an area that doesn't feel the need to be indoctrinated by a religion that was only created by a ( now known) mentally deficient king who sacked his wife and then married another , but was only able to because he sacked Rome and suddenly declared himself the Head of the Church... which had previously never existed?!

@choclateorangeinhaler

"Maybe it's gay men getting flung off rooftops in the Middle East or being put in concentration camps in Chechnya.
Maybe it's women getting flogged in the Middle East for not covering up at all times or shock horror being in a car with a man other than her husband. Or women in England claiming it's their religious right to cover up as much as they jolly well want to. Or is it the right wing in American bible belts that make others queasy. Or is it all that it's always just been a way to coerce people into behaving a certain way to keep a country going. Maybe the masses are sick to death at all the blood spilt in the past and today in the 21st century all in the name of religion. And you are questioning why it's not that popular?"

You are having a laugh aren't you?

The secular regimes of Pol Pot (Marxist), Mao (Communist) and Stalin (Communist) tortured and killed people in the 20th Century on a scale never before imagined.
If you count the total number of bodies those regimes piled up it makes Hitler look like a rank amateur -

Pol Pot - 1.5 - 2 million.
Mao - 45 million
Stalin - 7-10 million.

I wish uninformed people would research history before they lay all the ills of the world at the door of religion. [sceptical]

The secular regimes of Pol Pot (Marxist), Mao (Communist) and Stalin (Communist) tortured and killed people in the 20th Century on a scale never before imagined.

While this is true, it does not negate the fact that there have been countless wars, deaths, genocides fuelled by religion.

That argument is a bit like huffing 'but that car was speeding too' when you're stopped by the police doing 50 in a 30. Doing something wrong is not mitigated by someone else doing something worse.

@HollyGoLoudly1

OK I'll bite....

What genocide was fuelled by religion?

'Doing something wrong is not mitigated by someone else doing something worse'.

True but singling out religion as the sole perpetrator of human rights abuses doesn't wash either.

France has a secular government yet they banned the burkha and Macron's stormtroopers are cracking the skulls of the Gilet Jaune, and other French citizens, every weekend, because they have the temerity to protest against unfair taxation.

It is disingenuous to argue that removing religion from government will solve all perceived problems with inequality, privilege, and discrimination.