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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What do you think about the new organ donation law? (Opt out)

328 replies

Nameitychangity · 15/02/2021 14:15

Not sure if this across the whole NHS but the leaflet received today is from NHS Scotland.
The organ donation law is changing on 26th March, we will now have an 'opt out' system which means that if you do not specifically register yourself as NOT wanting to donate your organs and tissue after death, then the law will allow your body to be used for organ and tissue transplantation.
What do you think? I'm already an organ donor so it doesn't change things for me personally but it does leave me slightly uncomfortable and gives me the feeling that you do not have control over your own body after death, in fact the state 'owns' it unless you specifically make an effort to declare otherwise. Is this right?
Leaflet also states "if you do nothing it will also mean you agree to certain medical tests and procedures that may be carried out before your death as part of the donation process".
What do you think of an 'opt out' system? Is it fair enough that if you don't register that your body can be used after death?
YABU - I'm dead, they can do whatever they want with my body and I'm happy for my organs and tissue to be used
YANBU - the system should remain opt in and 'opt out' systems are not right

OP posts:
Kitdeluca1 · 15/02/2021 23:07

@PinkSparklyPussyCat I suppose so yes, however in most cases people needing a lung wouldn’t be in a position to donate one anyway.

Iwantacookie · 15/02/2021 23:07

Wouldn't bother me it's not like I'm going to be needing my organs any more.
I do think an opt out system is better. I'm not even sure I am registered as an orphan donor think it might say somewhere on my driving licence other than that I wouldn't know how to other than telling my family that I'm happy to donate my organs.

PurpleDaisies · 15/02/2021 23:10

Its not spite to place value on altruism or dislike hypocrisy.

Valuing altruism is fine. Valuing it so much that you’re prepared to condemn someone who once declared that they didn’t wish to be altruistic to an early is a pretty shocking view to take.

wheredidtheygoto · 15/02/2021 23:19

I think it's a good thing. I'm not in the uk and I have a friend who is 37 and in heart failure. If she doesn't receive a heart in the next day or two she's going to die. Why bury/burn organs that can save someone's life?

rawalpindithelabrador · 15/02/2021 23:22

@wheredidtheygoto

I think it's a good thing. I'm not in the uk and I have a friend who is 37 and in heart failure. If she doesn't receive a heart in the next day or two she's going to die. Why bury/burn organs that can save someone's life?
Because they are not the property of the state Hmm.
AlternativePerspective · 15/02/2021 23:23

would love to hear all the worthy personal reasons why people would happily accept organs but not donate them (I dont mean be unable to donate I mean actively choose not to). Its not spite to place value on altruism or dislike hypocrisy. It is interesting to see how people get upset about the prospect of losing out in a system they dont choose to support. the key here is the word “personal”. Those reasons are personal to the individual and are frankly none of yours or anyone else’s business. If you opt out you are not asked for a reason why you’ve opted out. if your family say no they’re not asked to justify why they’ve said no.

people don’t need to have a “worthy” reason for declining to donate their organs.

Added to which, the decision to donate or not to donate is usually one which is e.g. discussed down the pub or at the dinner table, whereas the news that you will need an organ is usually a piece of news which is delivered at the point when they tell you there’s nothing more that they can do for you.

But let me enlighten you as to how your personal hypocrisy could affect transplant recipients.

When you are told that you are going to need a transplant you know that if you are to receive that transplant then you will have to wait for the right person to die in the right circumstances You know that someone somewhere has made the decision to let that person’s organs be donated, and has said goodbye to that person while they are still breathing and their heart is still beating.

It is an incredible gift which the recipient will never lose sight of. There is an element of acceptance that your life will be built on someone else’s death and the grief of their families.

Organ recipients don’t happily receive a transplant, they do so with gratitude to the person who made the selfless decision for their’s or their family’s organs to be donated.

If this decision happened off the back of emotional blackmail and fear i.e. “sign up for the transplant list or be left to die if you need a transplant,” many would opt not to receive organs.

Or do you think that recipients are gleefully waiting for someone to die so they can benefit?

I am not against organ donation.

But am equally not going to “happily” receive an organ when I need one, and I do need one. The journey towards transplant is one of trepidation, anticipation and the knowledge that if an organ doesn’t come along in time, you will die. There is no place for emotional threats towards other people along that journey.

So give it some thought and stop bloody virtue signalling.

There is nothing altruistic about what you’re suggesting. Nothing.

spongedog · 15/02/2021 23:37

I havent rt whole t. But I signed up in England, and it was clear what organs were being donated ie liver, kidney, corneas etc. All specified clearly.

But I was quite concerned at the time (perhaps rumours only) about organs such as uterus and womb being donated. I would object to this, so appreciated the clarity from the NHS.

Nameitychangity · 15/02/2021 23:38

@wheredidtheygoto

I think it's a good thing. I'm not in the uk and I have a friend who is 37 and in heart failure. If she doesn't receive a heart in the next day or two she's going to die. Why bury/burn organs that can save someone's life?
Because they are not just bits of flesh to be used as if they were a nut or a bolt or a spare washer. They were part of a living breathing person, who was loved by someone. Even if that person is now dead. I'm truly sorry for anyone waiting on a transplant and I'm sorry if this thread has brought up painful memories or feelings for some people. I'd also like to thank everyone, particularly AlternativePerspective, who have contributed to a most interesting thread.
OP posts:
purplebatbear · 15/02/2021 23:39

It's a sensible thing to do. Who needs their organs when they're dead? Better for them to be used to help save/extend the life of another. I know there are religious reasons why some people could opt out but I think that's hugely selfish.

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/02/2021 23:44

@AlternativePerspective 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

user1467048527 · 15/02/2021 23:55

I have thought about this quite a bit due to having a colleague who was extremely upset when the law was changed in Wales, and although I’ve heard the arguments I still understand why people get so upset about presumed consent when we are talking about dead bodies. Everyone has their chance in life to opt out and it seems it’s very simple to do. Anyone who hasn’t opted out is therefore either actively in favour of donation or unaware / not bothered about it. If they’re in the latter camp they aren’t about to become bothered upon death, are they?

I am usually strongly pro-individual liberties, but I simply can’t apply this to a deceased individual who took no interest in the issue when alive. The state already disposes of bodies if they are unclaimed (who else would?) so I don’t really get the horror about the state laying claim to useful organs if no intention to the contrary is recorded.

I do think it’s right that bereaved families can choose not to donate, however, as they are the ones who have to live with the process. So I guess I’m at odds with a lot of the posters on here, but it fits with my view that it’s the living that should take priority. And in relation to someone who has died, close relatives should take precedence. This is where I think it’s important that people take the time to discuss this with relatives as others have said. I do, however, also think it may be right that for people who really feel especially strongly that no relative should be able to veto a donation that this could be recorded during life and acted on by hospitals accordingly.

Stripesnomore · 16/02/2021 01:35

Every society has respect for the dead. Even the very worst societies have at least had respect for their own dead, even if they put other people’s dead on spikes by the city gates.

Part of caring for the living society is showing that our dead, the lives they led and their wishes don’t cease to matter just because they are no longer with us. We are really turning into something quite depraved if we start talking about the dead as if they are no more than a collection of spare parts.

I understand the importance of organ donation and saving lives, but that doesn’t mean that respecting the dead has no value whatsoever.

If you want to win literal hearts and minds you won’t do it by talking about other people’s bodies as if they are nothing more than a carcass in a butcher’s window.

I will also reiterate that opting out means you are refusing automatic assumption that you are prepared to donate organs. It doesn’t mean that you are not prepared to donate under any circumstances.

FidgetArse · 16/02/2021 01:42

This has been the case for awhile

FidgetArse · 16/02/2021 01:45

I think opting out is up to the individual
But
I think if you opt out then you shouldnt be allowed blood or an organ if you ever need it !
And you cant change your mind, if you ever need either

Sapho47 · 16/02/2021 02:09

@Nameitychangity

Not sure if this across the whole NHS but the leaflet received today is from NHS Scotland. The organ donation law is changing on 26th March, we will now have an 'opt out' system which means that if you do not specifically register yourself as NOT wanting to donate your organs and tissue after death, then the law will allow your body to be used for organ and tissue transplantation. What do you think? I'm already an organ donor so it doesn't change things for me personally but it does leave me slightly uncomfortable and gives me the feeling that you do not have control over your own body after death, in fact the state 'owns' it unless you specifically make an effort to declare otherwise. Is this right? Leaflet also states "if you do nothing it will also mean you agree to certain medical tests and procedures that may be carried out before your death as part of the donation process". What do you think of an 'opt out' system? Is it fair enough that if you don't register that your body can be used after death? YABU - I'm dead, they can do whatever they want with my body and I'm happy for my organs and tissue to be used YANBU - the system should remain opt in and 'opt out' systems are not right
But unless you "opt out" and leave a will etc the state owns everything you have anyway

We've had this for years where I am though its sensible but utterly ruined by the fact the family can still override it

FidgetArse · 16/02/2021 02:10

The state doesnt own everything if you dont have a will.... Dont be so daft !

Sapho47 · 16/02/2021 02:11

"Because they are not the property of the state "

Hmm. Actually at market value a useable human body f organs definitely crosses the inheritance tax threshold so 25% of it should go to the state?

MissingLinker · 16/02/2021 02:24

This has been the case for a while. It's been on the news. People have been given the chance to opt out, if they aren't bothered enough to do so then I can't see why their consent shouldn't be assumed.
I was already opt in before all this. There's a part of me which feels a little squeamish about it but, really, I'll be dead. It'll have no impact on me but could potentially save someone else's life.

Sapho47 · 16/02/2021 02:25

@FidgetArse

The state doesnt own everything if you dont have a will.... Dont be so daft !
If you have no family it just goes to the state
CoalCraft · 16/02/2021 03:56

I have very little respect for people unwilling to donate their organs. I don't think it should be mandatory but I'm glad it's opt-out now and I think anyone choosing to opt out should forfeit their own entitlement to donor organs.

AgentJohnson · 16/02/2021 04:59

Opting out takes no effort at all.

AlternativePerspective · 16/02/2021 06:55

I sincerely hope the hard of thinking on this thread who believe that human rights should be removed if you don’t give over your body to the state realise what it actually is you’re suggesting.

You are suggesting that the training of doctors should be changed in order to ensure that some people are left to die based on the moral judgements of ... who exactly? If your own child didn’t want to donate organs, regardless of their reasons, you could really look them in the eye when they were seriously ill and in need of a transplant and say “oh well, you should have thought of that before you said you wouldn’t have donated your organs. Doesn’t matter that you probably never would have been in a position to anyway, because you had a thought I guess this is goodbye then.”?

And you really think that sets you apart as a moral, altruistic human being?

As for refusing blood, fortunately our emergency services and a&e departments have better things to do than to check the likes of the organ donor register to see if the person has opted out of organ donation before administering (usually urgent) life saving treatments. Or perhaps people would have our already over stretched a&e departments waste their time finding this information rather than be ministering to the patients who are actually waiting for treatment at that time...

Where else could we apply Moral judgement to people’s lives then?

I already mentioned the potential for smoking upthread, but let’s go one further and look at something which could impact on another human being.

Let’s say if someone has a termination they shouldn’t ever be permitted to have IVF. Or maybe if someone has a termination they should be sterilised during the process in order to ensure they don’t have more children, after all, they killed the one they already were about to have, so why should they be allowed to be so selfish?

Of course I don’t actually think that, but the logic could apply if we were changing the law to use moral judgement as a reason to refuse someone treatment.

Brefugee · 16/02/2021 07:28

Yep! Hence why daft comments like 'Bodily autonomy should end at death' are utterly ridiculous and dangerous.

You don't have complete bodily autonomy when alive if you're a woman anyway, even though abortion is pretty much effectively on demand in the UK, the law actually says otherwise.

Administering a register of people needing transplants who are not themselves prepared to be organ donors is pretty easy, i can see pros and cons of organ donation but i don't think this is a huge hurdle.

Tattooing "i am an organ donor" on your chest won't, in the face of your NOK saying "nope" will not override their wishes. The wishes of the living do take precedence here, for some bizarre reason.

People who were previously donors and have now opted out slow handclap. My hope is that the register of potential organ donors has now increased exponentially anyway, and that more people on the transplant list get at least a few years of extra, meaningful life out of this.

There are still a lot of discussions to be had about organ donation. Not least about when and who decides, for eg, about ending life-support and who can override a potential organ donor's wishes.

IMO the only reason this has been brought in is to make it easier for medical staff to approach next of kin when someone dies, nothing more, nothing less.

zzizzer · 16/02/2021 07:34

If it doesn't take long to opt out, then it doesn't take long to opt in either.

And this change HASN'T been communicated well. It relies on people monitoring the news (not everyone does or can), and then being proactive in working out how to be taken off.

"We could keep your body alive for days on end on a ventilator and then remove the organs" is the sort of thing that at least warrants a text message or letter or some form of personal communication in this day and age.

There's a reason they never just asked all citizens and are relying on assumed consent.

zzizzer · 16/02/2021 07:35

Regardless on your views of donation, the fact that the government has done this without even asking should raise some fucking eyebrows.