What do you think about the new organ donation law? (Opt out)

[Nameitychangity]

Not sure if this across the whole NHS but the leaflet received today is from NHS Scotland.
The organ donation law is changing on 26th March, we will now have an 'opt out' system which means that if you do not specifically register yourself as NOT wanting to donate your organs and tissue after death, then the law will allow your body to be used for organ and tissue transplantation.
What do you think? I'm already an organ donor so it doesn't change things for me personally but it does leave me slightly uncomfortable and gives me the feeling that you do not have control over your own body after death, in fact the state 'owns' it unless you specifically make an effort to declare otherwise. Is this right?
Leaflet also states "if you do nothing it will also mean you agree to certain medical tests and procedures that may be carried out before your death as part of the donation process".
What do you think of an 'opt out' system? Is it fair enough that if you don't register that your body can be used after death?
YABU - I'm dead, they can do whatever they want with my body and I'm happy for my organs and tissue to be used
YANBU - the system should remain opt in and 'opt out' systems are not right

I think it’s the right thing. I have always been a little bit freaked out by the thought...which is completely illogical cause I have no use for any of my remains if I’m dead! But the way I look at it, I asked myself the simple question: would I accept a donated organ if I needed it? The answer is a resounding yes, and I personally believe that if you aren’t willing to donate you shouldn’t be allowed to receive, so I opted in.

TL.DR : we don’t need our body after death so it should be broken down for whatever scraps are useful. It’s a waste otherwise!

No, I think it's a really problematic rule. It should not be the case that they can make an assumption that they have that access.

My major concern is that it will have knock on, unanticipated effects to other areas of law. For some reason people often poo poo this kind of thing, but it's actually extremely common. If the state can assume this access legally - even if they don't enforce it in practice - what else does it mean about their rights over our physical bodies, or parts of them?

I also object to the implication that seems to come with these laws that of course any really good person would donate (including accepting the end of life treatment that generally entails.). That's very much based on very culturally specific western ideas of a mind-body binary, which is not the only way to think about the human body or death.

And aside from that, the indications are that the best way to increase donation is to increase campaigns around it. So it is really stepping invasively into bodily autonomy issues without a good reason.

I think it’s a good thing, no one needs organs when their dead. I can appreciate religious reasons but personally if you wouldn’t give one you better not be taking one either!

@SmokedDuck

No, I think it's a really problematic rule. It should not be the case that they can make an assumption that they have that access.

My major concern is that it will have knock on, unanticipated effects to other areas of law. For some reason people often poo poo this kind of thing, but it's actually extremely common. If the state can assume this access legally - even if they don't enforce it in practice - what else does it mean about their rights over our physical bodies, or parts of them?

I also object to the implication that seems to come with these laws that of course any really good person would donate (including accepting the end of life treatment that generally entails.). That's very much based on very culturally specific western ideas of a mind-body binary, which is not the only way to think about the human body or death.

And aside from that, the indications are that the best way to increase donation is to increase campaigns around it. So it is really stepping invasively into bodily autonomy issues without a good reason.

Yep! Hence why daft comments like 'Bodily autonomy should end at death' are utterly ridiculous and dangerous.

Surely that should only be like for like @Kitdeluca1? Just because I won't donate my skin doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to have a lung for example.

It would be pretty much impossible to manage an “if you won’t donate you can’t have an organ” system. I don’t think any doctor would want to deny an organ to someone who could be helped because they’d said in the past that they didn’t want to be a donor themselves.

I guess my uneasy feeling comes from the fact that the DEFAULT status is now that the state controls your body after death ... I don't like the idea of presumed consent, or the default position being that you have to opt OUT of something being done to your body

Even as a registered donor I agree completely - as a PP said, donation is a gift not an entitlement, and for me departing from that is dangerous

I'm only waiting for "targets" to start, and if that happens I'll be opting out (though my family will still know to agree to harvesting if it comes to it)

Surprised the thread's still here though - for whatever reason those on this subject are almost invariably deleted

I had opted in before the change. I have now opted out and actively withdrawn my consent.

I don't like the presumed consent. Organ donation is a gift not a right.

I don't want my reproductive organs to be used by women who were born men.

I don't want my face or my hands or my feet to be used by anyone else.

Anyway I plan on living long and hard so my body parts will be not worth reusing.

Oh, FWIW - like quite a few others in the thread I was previously registered as a donor, but I've now opted out because I am not having anything to do with this sort of presumed consent.

Civil liberties are increasngly being pushed back, and that is not just stuff around covid.

The best way to increase organ donation is to make sure that people have moments when they are directly asked to consent - when they get a drivers licence, when they are at their GPs, etc, and they are encouraged to talk to family about it when they do.

This approach is either performative bollocks, or a real disregard for bodily integrity and autonomy.

I had also kept my family well-informed of my wishes so they knew what I hoped. I've since updated them given my new wishes.

I received my letter this week confirming that I had opted out.

Opt in should have remained the way it was done with more work around raising awareness and asking the right question at the right time.

My body. I decide.

I’ve opted to donate my organs, but feel very uncomfortable about opting out or donating by default. They're obviously doing it this way as they know that some people won’t get round to opting out - they may forget, or just not got round to it yet. Also, I’m not sure I would trust the NHS to record opting out wishes. Ive worked in admin for the NHS and have seen first hand their record keeping, which isn’t very good.

Something many people don't seem to realise - there are many people for whom the sticking point in donation is not the organ and what happens to it after they are dead - it is problems they have around the process involved in harvesting the organs and removing life support, or with the idea of "brain death".

These aren't irrational ideas, nor are the typical secular western ones more scientific somehow. The question of when a body ceases to be a person is philosophical and spiritual, the only reason it seems obvious and inarguable to most of us is because it involves a very deep-seated set of assumptions/beliefs about what it means to be human or a person.

Comments like "why wouldn't you/ you don't need it/it's just a bit of flesh" etc are really not grasping that there are significantly different ways of thinking about these questions that are also deserving of respect.

I dont think it would be a problem @PurpleDaisies. There are lots of people vying for organs, so all it would do is change the priority list for recipients. It's not like the organ would go to waste just because it doesnt go to someone not on the register.

@Porcupineintherough

I dont think it would be a problem *@PurpleDaisies*. There are lots of people vying for organs, so all it would do is change the priority list for recipients. It's not like the organ would go to waste just because it doesnt go to someone not on the register.

I don’t think you’ve quite understood. It isn’t that the organ would go to waste. It’s that who gets an organ is not influenced by people’s past opinions etc. It’s based on medical criteria only.

Yes I understand that. But lots of people who meet the appropriate medical criteria die each week because suitable organs are not available to them. This would just be another factor in deciding who they go to.

Donation is a gift... so should not be assumed.
I opted out when the system changed in England. The confirmation letter I got to confirm that said I should still discuss my wishes with my family.
So, does that mean they can opt to have my organs donated despite me having opted out? I can not find any information on this anywhere.

@Porcupineintherough

Yes I understand that. But lots of people who meet the appropriate medical criteria die each week because suitable organs are not available to them. This would just be another factor in deciding who they go to.

We don’t need another factor in deciding who to give organs to over and above medical need.

As I said, it would be unworkable. People could just officially opt in to organ donation but tell their next of kin to say no if it ever came to that in real life. People’s views change anyway.

So, does that mean they can opt to have my organs donated despite me having opted out? I can not find any information on this anywhere.

Yes.

@AlternativePerspective

So, does that mean they can opt to have my organs donated despite me having opted out? I can not find any information on this anywhere.

Yes.

I have a huge issue with this. I really don’t think my family should be able to override my clearly expressed wishes.

Yes I understand that. But lots of people who meet the appropriate medical criteria die each week because suitable organs are not available to them. This would just be another factor in deciding who they go to.

This is like those pro lifers who disagree with abortion on the basis that it’s “murder” but shoot abortion doctors if they get the chance.

This isn’t about wanting people to survive. You’re quite happy to see people die purely because they don’t want to give up their organs which are theirs to give, for their own personal reasons. You don’t care about saving lives, this is about spite and nothing more.

If you actually cared about people’s lives you would care about them all, not just the ones who don’t conform to your thinking.

@AlternativePerspective

Yes I understand that. But lots of people who meet the appropriate medical criteria die each week because suitable organs are not available to them. This would just be another factor in deciding who they go to.

This is like those pro lifers who disagree with abortion on the basis that it’s “murder” but shoot abortion doctors if they get the chance.

This isn’t about wanting people to survive. You’re quite happy to see people die purely because they don’t want to give up their organs which are theirs to give, for their own personal reasons. You don’t care about saving lives, this is about spite and nothing more.

If you actually cared about people’s lives you would care about them all, not just the ones who don’t conform to your thinking.

Excellent post!

I have a huge issue with this. I really don’t think my family should be able to override my clearly expressed wishes. which is why you should be having the conversation with your family.

Evidence very much suggests that family who were previously aware of the wishes of the potential donor are more likely to agree to donation.

I agree that family shouldn’t be able to override someone’s wishes, but it’s more difficult than that. The family are the ones who have to watch their family member be taken away without the ability to be there when they take their last breath, even if that breath was on a ventilator, because the patient is still on life support, their heart is still beating at the time their organs are retrieved. It’s very easy to sit there and say that people should do x or y, and indeed many people do. But if the family are unaware of someone’s wishes they are faced with not only the decision as to whether to donate their loved one’s organs at a time they were unprepared, but also with the shock of their family member, who was probably alive and well hours ago, is now dead, and they had no warning.

You need to speak to your family and make your wishes known.

That is by far the biggest priority here.

When I heard about this, I opted in straight away. Not that they’d want anything, but once I’m done I’m done.

@AlternativePerspective

So, does that mean they can opt to have my organs donated despite me having opted out? I can not find any information on this anywhere.

Yes.

Sounds like I will need to get a tattoo detailing my wishes, right across my chest! I can understand families going against their loved one's wishes to donate. Most people eligible to donate were taken ill or critically injured suddenly. It is an awful lot to take in for their families. But for a family to be told their loved one opted out, but still say to go ahead with donation.... what is the point of having a register for either decision if the final say is down the to family?

@AlternativePerspective would love to hear all the worthy personal reasons why people would happily accept organs but not donate them (I dont mean be unable to donate I mean actively choose not to). Its not spite to place value on altruism or dislike hypocrisy. It is interesting to see how people get upset about the prospect of losing out in a system they dont choose to support.