Is anyone really making any actual sacrifices to combat climate change?

[Cam77]

Saw a news article about a well known celebrity who is very outspoken on climate issues having another child, which is of course literally the worst thing you can do in terms of your climate footprint. But anyway it got me thinking: Does anyone make any actual sacrifices/significant life style compromises for climate change? Or do we instead merely big up choices that we would have made for different reasons anyway?

For example, I'm vegetarian and when people ask the reason I'll cite the effect of beef and pork farming on the environment as one reason. But the truth is I wouldn't eat them anyway, as I hate the idea of inflicting suffering on other intelligent mammals. Or sometimes I tell myself not owning a car is me "doing my bit" but the truth is I don't really enjoy driving and don't need a car for work. Anyway, it often seems when you scratch the surface, there are nearly always reasons of immediate self-interest attached.

Of course, people are good at spending a few minutes to sort and separate their rubbish now, and we take more care to turn off lights we're not using. All good. But how many people are really making significant life style compromises for purely altruistic reasons. 1 in 100? 1 in 1000?

We are going to install air source heat pump heating when the boiler goes, I'm getting quotes in preparation as the boiler is 15 years old

individuals ARE the answer. To combat climate change we need to fly less, drive less, buy less, have less, breed less. All those mean reduced lifestyle, except possibly the last.

just because stuff can be bought, doesn't mean you have to buy it.

very few people actually give a stuff when it comes to reducing their own quality of life for the planet. And I'm one of them. I do little shopping even in normal times because it bores me, I always think about combining car errands and walk where possible, but I won't do what I have to do now just because it saves petrol. And I'll probably be driving rather than taking the train even after covid, because the cheap fares I used to get are long gone.

5 years ago you would be hard tasked to find more than one type of alternative to diary milk in a supermarket, yet right now I'd say it's almost half/half.

Though the flip side to this of course is that many dairy/meat substitutes have a disastrous impact and are incredibly water-thirsty.

@HesterShaw1

Isn't it funny that so many people are 100% committed to turning their lives upside down to combat the risk of catching covid, yet won't do anything to combat a much more dangerous threat?

Exactly!

Agreed on your last one, I too have gotten a bit more strategic in my charitable donations (though I hasten to add they are small). Certainly I am more focused on supporting things to do with animals, biodiversity, habitat loss etc. than with strictly 'human' causes (though of course they are all intertwined). A part of my thinks that we humans have had our chance and have sort of blown it and lets minimise the damage to all the other species as the whole shit show goes down.

I agree with you there.

I guess I just don't see human life or human ways of living as inherently valuable, and if we fuck it up, then we'll have had a short, relatively unimpressive tenure on this planet. It may in a way prove that an overly intelligent species isn't by default better, for themselves or the planet. Dolphins, as per Hitch Hikers guide, probably wouldn't be too happy to have jobs etc. Just happy eating fish and titting about in the sea, and never having to wonder whether life is fair.

I mean, watch any wildlife documentary and they will almost never interfere. That's the approach I take to human environmental issues now. Having to walk five miles to get dirty water? Well, then it's not an environment that supports healthy human habitation and might be better for migrating populations or animals with a low water need. Instead of creating an irrigation system that prioritises humans.

I know what you mean..my husband was made redundant in sept and lost the car with the job, and we've been managing without. Truth is, its fine, supermarkets close by and we walk everywhere (which i have always enjoyed). Its still in a very small way helping with cc.
Also im vegetarian, but thats more to do with love of animals, and not worry about cc.

I avoid plastic where possible, and go food shopping more often, doing smaller shops to reduce waste.

Even if our motives are self involved, if they result in good, then it doesnt matter

@theleafandnotthetree True, but research suggests most consumers would opt for a 'green' option given a clear choice. The biggest oil firms spend millions lobbying to block climate policies and on misleading campaigns because their drive for profit is greater than their drive to satisfy consumer 'wants'. And shifting their entire business model is expensive and not in the interests of shareholders.

So no, they're not operating in a vacuum, but they are manipulating our collective decisions for their own gains. A tipping point will come from increased investment in finding climate-friendly alternatives to existing products (because companies know it's the right & necessary thing to do) or companies having their hand forced by government policies. We're already seeing the latter happen thanks to the Paris Agreement, which is having a much bigger impact than consumer niggles about pollution.

I now have shit energy saving bulbs that I can't see with and that cost a fortune. I understand that if every bulb on earth including commercial and street bulbs were to be replaced we'd reduce carbon emissions by 1.2% so obviously I'm happy that the EU focused on this.

Oh and I've consistently not flown to a Caribbean island for 43 years so yay me.

I don't do much really and I do feel guilty about it. We recycle and try not to buy single use plastic. DH drives a hybrid but I can't justify a new car for myself at the moment. I walk where I can instead of driving. We fly once every couple of years but not long haul.

Having to walk five miles to get dirty water? Well, then it's not an environment that supports healthy human habitation and might be better for migrating populations or animals with a low water need. Instead of creating an irrigation system that prioritises humans.

Yes much better to forgo donations to water aid because of this and other scenarios. Fuck those kids shitting their insides out because they're drinking from streams that hippos piss in. I'll give my money to some tit that imports rabid street dogs from Romania instead.

@SomewhereUpMyArse

Having to walk five miles to get dirty water? Well, then it's not an environment that supports healthy human habitation and might be better for migrating populations or animals with a low water need. Instead of creating an irrigation system that prioritises humans.

Yes much better to forgo donations to water aid because of this and other scenarios. Fuck those kids shitting their insides out because they're drinking from streams that hippos piss in. I'll give my money to some tit that imports rabid street dogs from Romania instead.

Where did I say that Romanian street dogs were the answer?

There are plenty of third world sustainable development projects out there to help people and importantly, block the rights of, but trying to shoehorn more human habitats into unviable land is just adding to the problem.

You can snark all you want, but adding more human habitation and population to the world is just creating more human and animal suffering. Which isn't very humane in my opinion.

@AndwhenyougetthereFoffsomemore

I am sure you're right: but I don't think that means that the small inconveniences (faffing with recycling; composting food waste; not driving short distances; choosing local and seasonal food over flow-in options; choosing lose rather than plastic wrapped veg; eating less meat ; buy secondhand when possible etc etc) don't impact. Each step - once integrated - becomes natural and ceases to be an inconvenience, so you add another. I'm always amazed how many people don't do those simpler steps: why aim for sacrifice when there is so much simpler stuff to do first?

That said, in terms of larger sacrifices: we are currently on a meat-cutting exercise, very much more from environmental factors than anything else, as I aim for good animal husbandry/rearing conditions (whilst accepting this is still not optimal). We've cut out beef totally (a HUGE sacrifice for one of my dc who is a total carnivore); lamb is next on the list (which will feel like a sacrifice for all of us: we love lamb!!). Sure there are potentially health benefits, but cutting out biscuits would be a more sensible step if that was the only goal ;-)

I feel similarly.Surely 1000 people doing minor things does make as much difference as 2 people making massive changes. Sometimes I feel like asking people to take an all or nothing approach will result in a large percentage of people doing nothing. So if you say everyone should be vegan, buy only ethically produced clothes, not own a car, never go abroad on holiday, not own a smart phone and grow all their own vegetables, 99% of people wouldn't do it. If you said choose one, maybe 20% of people would engage...?

Ive got a friend who is forever posting guardian articles about climate change, they go on holiday abroad (pre covid) more than anyone else I know, but they don't have kids.

I haven't been on a plane since 2014 but thats due to budget rather than climate change. In fact for me the cheaper eco things are the ones I'm more likely to be on board with. And although partly its a convenience and cost factor, I often wonder whether driving to one town to the refill/eco shop to get some (but by no means all) groceries/cleaning products, going to another place to get locally produced fruit and veg, another to get meat/fish...and then tesco because there are still gaps that these shops don't cover...is that more eco than one journey to a supermarket...or a supermarket delivery?

I guess I just don't see human life or human ways of living as inherently valuable, and if we fuck it up, then we'll have had a short, relatively unimpressive tenure on this planet

I find this a boggling view.

I understand prioritising environmental/animal causes if that’s your thing but to dismiss the whole human race? It’s a bit try hard to be so self-hating.

For all our (many, many) failings humans are a pretty spectacular example in nature of intelligent life. Other species have shown amazing understandings of societal structures and engineering but humans have definitely excelled beyond that in a way that is nothing short of impressive. The natural state of the universe is wondrous and amazing but we have no other species that has shown even an inkling of observing it and trying to understand it.

I find it very sad that one day, as far as we know, there will be no conscious observance of world and wider universe.

This is why I don't think that the agenda should be to 'make sacrifices' it should be to 'make better choices'
Sacrifices will never catch on for the vast majority of people and one or two people making sacrifices isn't going to have much wholesale impact as getting most people to do a little bi t and make a change in habits.
Lots of habits are just that something we are used to doing, making a decision to do something that will not make a fundamental change to your lifestyle but will be a more sustainable choice than what you are currently doing is better than saying I can't do that because it's too hard / I don't want to!
Not using a car at all would be a big lifestyle change but being conscious of how you travel and reducing unnecessary journeys probably once you got used to it wouldn't have a massive impact on your lifestyle but is a change for the better.
It also has to be a balance of what individuals can do and bigger organisations can do too not one or the other, we should be trying to do something but it doesn't have to be everything.

An easy one is switching to a green energy tarrif if you can afford it (often little/no price difference).

If you have more money and a decent roof, then get solar panels.

Both of these make a real difference and the only hardship is financial, not lifestyle changes.

I appreciate not everyone is able to do this, but I suspect a healthy proportion of mumsnetters are, if what I read on the 'how much do you earn?' threads is true.

No. I am not a big consumer.

@Cornettoninja

I guess I just don't see human life or human ways of living as inherently valuable, and if we fuck it up, then we'll have had a short, relatively unimpressive tenure on this planet

I find this a boggling view.

I understand prioritising environmental/animal causes if that’s your thing but to dismiss the whole human race? It’s a bit try hard to be so self-hating.

For all our (many, many) failings humans are a pretty spectacular example in nature of intelligent life. Other species have shown amazing understandings of societal structures and engineering but humans have definitely excelled beyond that in a way that is nothing short of impressive. The natural state of the universe is wondrous and amazing but we have no other species that has shown even an inkling of observing it and trying to understand it.

I find it very sad that one day, as far as we know, there will be no conscious observance of world and wider universe.

That's really well put. I like it. I always try and respond to things on FB which show, for example, some awful environmental or wildlife crime and someone says "I hate us" or "Humans are terrible", with something fairly token like "Speak for yourself". Because I know we're not all terrible and it would be a great deal more hopeless if we were.

Better choices rather than sacrifices is another good point.

I agree with @Cornettoninja and tbh it's those kind of anti-human nihilistic views that alienate me from the environmental movement. I also find it incredibly preachy.

I've noticed similar sentiments being voiced much more over the last five years or so and there's something quite sinister at the back of it that makes me deeply wary.

I do know that I'm being irrational but as soon as someone starts talking about how terrible humans are my first instinct is to distance myself from, well, pretty much everything they say.

I don’t believe having a child is the worst thing you can do for the environment.

My family worked out our carbon footprint - mine and my two adult children’s combined was lower than my adult sister’s.

I don’t think we are even trying that hard. We just don’t drive or fly, vegetarian and live in a small multi occupancy household.

I still feel like we have a good standard of living and really don’t feel like we have sacrificed anything.

@Cornettoninja

I guess I just don't see human life or human ways of living as inherently valuable, and if we fuck it up, then we'll have had a short, relatively unimpressive tenure on this planet

I find this a boggling view.

I understand prioritising environmental/animal causes if that’s your thing but to dismiss the whole human race? It’s a bit try hard to be so self-hating.

For all our (many, many) failings humans are a pretty spectacular example in nature of intelligent life. Other species have shown amazing understandings of societal structures and engineering but humans have definitely excelled beyond that in a way that is nothing short of impressive. The natural state of the universe is wondrous and amazing but we have no other species that has shown even an inkling of observing it and trying to understand it.

I find it very sad that one day, as far as we know, there will be no conscious observance of world and wider universe.

I agree. But I do think there’s an element of it’s easy to type about not caring about end of human life.

NB when I say I'm being irrational I mean that I'm being irrational by the anti human stuff making me feel alienated from the environmental movement, because logically I know that if I act in ways that benefit the environment it's a good thing for me and everyone else.

But actually it's not at root irrational at all to not listen to someone who hates people!

Are the anti-human people typically environmentalists?

Or just something provocative on SM

I don't. I can't afford to in many ways.

@Cornettoninja

I guess I just don't see human life or human ways of living as inherently valuable, and if we fuck it up, then we'll have had a short, relatively unimpressive tenure on this planet

I find this a boggling view.

I understand prioritising environmental/animal causes if that’s your thing but to dismiss the whole human race? It’s a bit try hard to be so self-hating.

For all our (many, many) failings humans are a pretty spectacular example in nature of intelligent life. Other species have shown amazing understandings of societal structures and engineering but humans have definitely excelled beyond that in a way that is nothing short of impressive. The natural state of the universe is wondrous and amazing but we have no other species that has shown even an inkling of observing it and trying to understand it.

I find it very sad that one day, as far as we know, there will be no conscious observance of world and wider universe.

I'm not saying we're not uninteresting or unimpressive, and I'd be very interested to compare the value-added of human society to the species compared to other species.

I.e. Does your average dolphin have a better life satisfaction index than your average human? Is human endeavour actually collectively improving human lives, or is it just shifting the problems around and creating new ones? Don't ask the twelve year old who manufactured the parts of your smartphone if you want a pleasant answer ;)

If you're worried for my state of mind, then I can assure you that I enjoy and appreciate ALL the world, including the myriad species that aren't human. I just don't like it when the world is viewed as a function for providing human satisfaction, because a world without cheetahs or giraffes or hummingbirds or igneous rocks or oak trees or aloe vera would be boring.

Human arts and creation are also something we are a) the only species doing significantly and b) something that we enjoy - but I'd lay heavy bets that most of don't do it much because we're stuck in the grind of consumption and production.

Also, I'd say that the vast majority of us, myself included, AREN'T adding anything to human knowledge or endeavour - we're just sitting here consuming the knowledge of others and using it to survive, whilst consuming vast quantities of the planet's resources making it unliveable for ourselves and others. That includes health care workers etc, as you only need enough to sustain the size of the present population...

But eh. Humans will continue down this path, or nature will cut them down to size.

I dunno if it's just SM @MarshaBradyo. I mean I've only seen the trailers for that latest Attenborough series but all I'm getting from it is that it's going to be all about how humans fuck everything up. And that's on primetime BBC.

I've no interest in watching it so I'll probably never know if that's where he's really coming from, but certainly it seems to be the central message.