To think we have to accept that we need to use savings to fund care in old age

[LastDuchessFerrara]

My parents died before reaching old age but I'm now watching family and friends caring - in one form or another - for older relatives.

Many seem to be in denial about the fact that savings, pensions and, in some cases equity in their home, needs to be used to enable their relatives to continue to stay in their homes or go into care.

"But they've worked all their lives!" they cry in protest. Well, yes - and now that money needs to be used in their old age.

It's really focussed my mind on how any money I accumulate might not be spent on amazing holidays but paying for cleaners and carers.

I'd be interested in views but please can this not be a "boomer" bashing thread. I know plenty of impoverished old people and plenty of entitled non-boomers.

My parents both had to pay for their care and they had the savings to do so. Because they had the funds they had more choices about what care to have as time went by

This is why I never understand why people see money spent on care as 'wasted'. When my grandfather needed care the fact he was self-funding gave so many more choices, and ultimately let him live in his own home for much longer. When he did need a care home I saw the only one the LA would have funded and was very glad it wasn't where he had to go. Money always buys you options and choices and that seems to me to be more important in old age, not less.

My mother has dementia & is in a care home as I could no longer cope with the violence. She is fortunate that there is money & she should be able to stay in that home til she dies.
I saw the sort of places that house local authority funded residents & they were waiting rooms for death. My greatest fear is that the money will run out & she'll end up in one of those places.
Yes Mum always said she'd rather kill herself than have dementia but by the time she'd got the diagnosis, it was how her life was. She has no awareness she's ill so why would she kill herself?
Should the state fund her care? She has the money to pay herself. There are no guarantees in life. I'm just relieved that she has the money for us to choose somewhere decent.

@AlwaysCheddar

If I get a stage where I don’t have a clue what planet I’m on, id rather someone put a pillow over my face than pay thousands on a grotty nursing home.

Same. I think with an aging population like ours, assisted suicide will need to become a realistic option alongside assisted living. Many people I know feel the same way, having seen grandparents have their entire life savings spent on nursing for a person who has no idea who or where they are, can't feed themselves or use the toilet. In this country we are more concerned with quantity of life at all costs, not quality of life.

@BigWoollyJumpers

I find it interesting how we all pretty much support a social system which pays for free health, free education, free housing, UC, child benefit, etc etc etc, until those people who need it get old. Then it is, not fair that society helps pay for their care.

We pay taxes, a lot, as DH earns a good wage. We also pay for our own healthcare, education, house, etc etc. We don't qualify for child benefit. That's fine, we don't expect a rebate. We will also get a pension, which we will pay tax on, because (hopefully) it will be on the higher side. We also don't expect society to pay for our old age care. Why does becoming old, mean you aren't expected to pay for yourselves if you can? I just don't get the difference.

It's the scale of what the social system has to provide for the elderly that's often so different. Sit in any hospital or GP surgery for the afternoon and you realise how much people's use of the NHS increases as they age. The state pension was instituted as a benefit that would on average pay out for a couple of years, now it's on average well over a decade and a sizeable number are in receipt of it for 20-30 years. The costs of care are enormous, and not really comparable to the state resources most people will consume during their working lives (even if you never work a day and claim every benefit you can you're unlikely to cost the state as much per week as a care home does).

Obviously none of this is elderly people's fault, but the truth is we're not set up as a society for the consequences of rising life expectancy and particularly for the number of years people can now live in poor health. We need to either accept much higher taxes or that many more people are expected to spend their own money on this - we can't carry on with the current situation, it's unsustainable and in practice what it means is underfunded and often inadequate social services for people who do need care.

@PinkyParrot

Perhaps governments for start offering financial incentives for people who agree to euthanize themselves at a certain age. Haha- then of course many change their minds when the time comes - so someone has to do it for them ................ great dystopian movie theme!

There would need to be an implant that you can't remove 🤷‍♀️

We should be FORCED to spend every penny of our wealth on our care when we need it

We came into this world without money, we don't need to leave it to others (apart from children who are dependent)

There are 2 solution

1. we pay more tax
2. we stop moaning about using our assets if we have them and banking on inheriting money.

Either would work

@AlwaysCheddar

If I get a stage where I don’t have a clue what planet I’m on, id rather someone put a pillow over my face than pay thousands on a grotty nursing home.

My grandmother used to say this. She never wanted to go in to a home and hear we are with her coming up to 5 years living in one. Her dementia came on quite fast and she went from being fine living independently to a care home with a few months. Her life savings and proceeds from her house are pretty much all gone and that is with a good work pension being paid in to her account each month. She would hate what her life has become, especially with COVID and all the extra issues that brings (limited family visits behind a glass screen etc). My grandparents often use to say about the Inheritance they would be leaving us and we did get some from gf, but there will be nothing left from gm now. Care home fees cost£1100 a week. I know my dm is frustrated as there isn’t more state help for fees, but realistically if the state are a paying, that really means, Dh and I are picking up the tab with increased taxes, so we won’t be any better of in the long run anyway. It does seem unfair that those who don’t save and live in rented accommodation or have the foresight to transfer assets in good time then don’t have to pay fees, but this is what happens if you live in a country with a welfare state and actually I would rather the cushion be there in case I need it.

@LaurieFairyCake

Don't worry, there are elements of that approach being set in motion.

And really, with the current set up, none of us really own our money or assets anyway, they're just not honest about it. Our lifelong efforts are expected to keep the economy turning, not to feather our own nests.

It's grim. Dementia is a degenerative brain disease yet classed as needing only social care, even when medical regimes are needed to prolong life. That's pretty shit.

There are no local authority care homes where I live. None. The council has a terrible time finding places for people who aren’t self funders because the private homes have waiting lists and don’t need their business, especially at the pitiful rates they offer. Why would they give the council a place for £400 a week when a self funder will pay £1k? The subsidy pp have mentioned doesn’t happen here for that reason.

What does happen is that council funded residents get shipped off to the nearest city where there are cheap, shitty homes that will accept £400 a week. It’s difficult and expensive for their families to visit them and they’re cut off from everyone and everything they know.

The reality here is that if you’re not a self funder, you’re fucked.

Yes Mum always said she'd rather kill herself than have dementia but by the time she'd got the diagnosis, it was how her life was. She has no awareness she's ill so why would she kill herself?

I think when people spout on about euthanasia or suicide when they get old they often have no idea of the reality of why that's so difficult. My grandmother had a pretty horrible mental decline before her death and I wish we could have spared her it. But she would sometimes ask to die (which was awful) but other times be completely happy and have no such desire. She had no capacity then anyway, but how could you euthanise someone who changed their mind and had no real understanding of their own situation? People imagine they'd do it earlier than this but very few people can stomach ending their life before decline, and once it comes it can be swift and the situation gets a lot muddier really fast. And what might look like a life not worth living to someone younger and healthier looks a bit different when it's your life, the only one you get. People always think they'll be better and more pragmatic at making decisions about their old age - e.g. moving to an accessible, practical property before they need to - than they actually are when all the emotion is involved.

@LastDuchessFerrara

My parents died before reaching old age but I'm now watching family and friends caring - in one form or another - for older relatives.

Many seem to be in denial about the fact that savings, pensions and, in some cases equity in their home, needs to be used to enable their relatives to continue to stay in their homes or go into care.

"But they've worked all their lives!" they cry in protest. Well, yes - and now that money needs to be used in their old age.

It's really focussed my mind on how any money I accumulate might not be spent on amazing holidays but paying for cleaners and carers.

I'd be interested in views but please can this not be a "boomer" bashing thread. I know plenty of impoverished old people and plenty of entitled non-boomers.

I have had this very conversation with my husband regarding our old age and likelihood of passing anything to our children.

I can’t imagine there will be much/if any state pension by the time we are of pensionable age (whatever age that’ll be by then).

Don’t people have to pay for their residential care if they have assets over 30,000 pounds already. I wouldn’t be surprised if that lessened and people had to contribute towards home care too ( unless they already do).

The Pil both got dementia and sped through all their assets, savings and house. They were not in a nice home, because the only one that would take severely demented and violent mil was one which took mainly local-authority funded people, and later fil joined her so they were in the same home. So choice is not always there. The homes with nice furnishings and sherry at 6pm wouldn’t touch mil with a barge pole.

We all say we are going to do ourselves in or head off to Dignitas if we get dementia. However, in practice, most people are in huge denial and refuse to confront it, aided and abetted by their spouse. By which time they have lost capacity to make any decisions. And the will to live is strong. Dementia is not necessarily life-limiting and people just go on for years, with no quality of life and draining their assets or the state’s.

They already do @AIMD. It’s means tested at over £23.5k, the house doesn’t count.

My PIL are adamant they ha e "ring fenced" everything and put it all into trust so it can't be used to pay care home fees and will all go to Dh and sil.

I've not looked into it but I can't see how?

It is lovely to have the funds to pay for the best residential care home possible and not have to rely on what the state can provide.
I do feel some relatives/family view grandparents etc as a money pot rather than considering their needs and selecting good quality care using their savings/pensions etc ....

@AIMD I think the threshold is £23,500 before the council step in. gm is very nearly at this point and started out with £175,000 from the sale of her house plus about £100,000 in savings. It goes down very quickly! (But, we couldn’t care for her as a family and she needed care, so it is a necessary cost, much like childcare for working parents).

@AlwaysCheddar

If I get a stage where I don’t have a clue what planet I’m on, id rather someone put a pillow over my face than pay thousands on a grotty nursing home.

I would have no hesitation in ending myself rather than be a burden to my children, or unable to live with all my faculties intact.

@VinylDetective

They already do *@AIMD*. It’s means tested at over £23.5k, the house doesn’t count.

The house will count in some situations. I think if a spouse is living in it, it won’t count, but if it is empty, it will become an asset. Why wouldn’t it? The state won’t fund care because the dc want to make a profit out of renting the family home out long term. Our old next door neighbours were able to take some kind of loan to pay for care home fees, based on what the house was worth. I’m not sure of the details, but it covered the time between him going in to care and the house being sold (it took a while to sell).

Please don't dismiss people's lives just because they need support and care

I agree with you @HeyGirlHeyBoy. DSis died in a care home. She had terminal cancer, PTSD, mobility issues, poor vision and dementia brought on by radiotherapy. She was in her 40s. It was very difficult for her children seeing her like this- she often didn't recognise them. However, she still had joy at certain things. There were times when she was reasonably lucid and we had good conversations. She enjoyed being by the sea. Much as I hated seeing her in pain, I don't believe it would be right to have ended her life earlier.

I can't believe the number of people on this thread on the one hand complaining about inheritance tax, and on the other complaining about having to pay for care. If we all paid more tax for the right services, we could have better care provision.

I’m in the US and my PIL took out some sort of long term care insurance policy that will help pay for their care if/when they need it. I don’t know all the details, but it seems like a sensible idea and presumably gives them more options.

Fuckadoodledo

I can imagine that will be equally hellish for you and your family if your Parents in Law need care - either they will be trying to access money they've deliberately put in a trust/tried to hide to buy a nicer care home?

Or relying on you all to look after them...

@Fuckadoodledoooo

My PIL are adamant they ha e "ring fenced" everything and put it all into trust so it can't be used to pay care home fees and will all go to Dh and sil.

I've not looked into it but I can't see how?

The thing I find odd about this attitude is that it often comes from people who wouldn't dream of staying in a less than 4* hotel, buy Waitrose and M&S food, etc - but are happy to spend potentially years in the very cheapest care home so that the council funds it, even if they don't have to and could live somewhere nicer? I guess people think they won't know any different but again I think that's naive - most people in care homes aren't totally indifferent to their surroundings, certainly not all the time. I think people imagine a situation where it's much more binary between 'fine and so living at home' to 'no understanding or quality of life at all'.

@countrygirl99

There are 2 solution

1. we pay more tax
2. we stop moaning about using our assets if we have them and banking on inheriting money.

Either would work

This.

It appears very few people want to pay more taxes yet most appear to want to keep all pension, savings and property etc to pass on to family whilst the state pays for their care.....

So when you get rubbish care provision because you have given money away or ring fenced it 🤔 then don't complain....

The sense of entitlement whilst not wanting to pay is staggering in this country....yet many if these same people will happily bash people on benefits

My mother always said "put me in a home if I go gaga" without ever really imagining she actually might. She did develop dementia but the onset was too gradual for her to really realise what was happening until she was no longer capable of really absorbing and understanding it. We looked after her at home for as long as we could. It got eventually that she did not recognise her home as home, home to her was her childhood home. She never once expressed a wish to die even though she did have distressing lucid moments.