To think we have to accept that we need to use savings to fund care in old age

[LastDuchessFerrara]

My parents died before reaching old age but I'm now watching family and friends caring - in one form or another - for older relatives.

Many seem to be in denial about the fact that savings, pensions and, in some cases equity in their home, needs to be used to enable their relatives to continue to stay in their homes or go into care.

"But they've worked all their lives!" they cry in protest. Well, yes - and now that money needs to be used in their old age.

It's really focussed my mind on how any money I accumulate might not be spent on amazing holidays but paying for cleaners and carers.

I'd be interested in views but please can this not be a "boomer" bashing thread. I know plenty of impoverished old people and plenty of entitled non-boomers.

it does seem ridiculous doesn't it but a little bit of googling throws this up:
'The relationship between French citizens and their elderly parents is affected by France's inheritance laws, under which parents are obliged to leave their estates to their children'
It also appears that you can disinherit yourself and then be freed from the obligations towards your parents.
Thing is I could spend my life being a complete waster, ruining my health etc and then my children would be forced to pick up the pieces and deal with the consequences 😳 how can that be right 😳 it sounds like a mediaeval sort of law 🤔

Actually, oil0W0lio, I’m 56, husband 62 soon. Now you put it that way, maybe not as ridiculous as I first thought ... 🤣

Almost as mediaeval as expecting the taxpayer to do it ...

@VinylDetective

Almost as mediaeval as expecting the taxpayer to do it ...

lol! Good one!

I just messaged my friends in France, they said they'd never heard of it being legally enforced and care at home is free plus those that can or want to, are able to take out long term care insurance, something that really should be available here, if state funded care isn't ever going to be available.

The costs are for housing only and not for any medical care.

messaged my friends in France
Thanks for doing the research @jasjas1973😊🙏

@abstractprojection

Alzheimer’s and dementia should get the same level of care on the NHS as any other illness, as should mental health. They don’t and if taxes needs to be raised to cover then they should be.

It’s not just about who bears the cost but ensuring everyone person gets the level of medical treatment that they need, and that cost isn’t a factor that prevents them from getting it

More general care would ideally also be provided under the umbrella of the NHS as it is better and more cost effective at providing large scale services then private (see vaccines vs. track and trace). If this were to happen then we might need to accept that it needs to be paid for (at a subsidised rate depending on income/assets). This goes against ‘free at the point of use’ but we already do this for prescriptions and dentistry. And tax increases

Personally I think lowering the inheritance tax threshold as well as increasing working age taxes like NI is a good way of sharing this across generations and income/assets.

At the moment though a lot of families have to make the choice of providing care themselves and their inheritance. I fully accept that I may lose mine as I don’t wish to do this, and don’t think it would be good enough care if I did

In what way do you mean that Alzheimer's and dementia don't get the same treatment as other conditions?

Butt, if you or your parent has cancer or heart disease, then it's unequivocally the responsibility of the NHS to provide necessary care via whatever care setting is considered appropriate, and the care is free at the point of delivery.

People who are affected or incapacitated by dementia, but who are otherwise in good physical health (which is surprisingly common) effectively fall outside the NHS because their needs are viewed as social and residential rather than medical. There's a major test case in progress at the moment which aims to establish where the demarcation lines are and what the rules for Continuing Health Care should be when we have an increasing elderly population and rising incidence of dementias. The powers-that-be are watching the outcome with bated breath.

Someone will correct any glaring errors I am sure, but this is some of the explanation. Like everything else at public policy level, it's vastly complicated and there's a lot of scope for unintended consequences.

I take on board all the posts about MH being worse now than in the past, or at least that it's much more frequently diagnosed. It seems, to me, that this is yet another example of the old line: the past is a different country; they did things differently there.

@oil0W0lio

That’s true, it’s very hard to disinherit your children here. When her husband died quite young, my friend had to get her three children so sign a waiver declaring that the would forgo their right to inherit directly from their dad - otherwise they would end up owning half of her property, and she’s need their agreement to sell etc.

Also, it’s possible for parents to gift their property to their children here and continue living in it rent free, unlike in the U.K.

Hmm don’t think I agree entirely with yr friends @oil0W0lio I know people here who are contributing to their parents residential and nursing home care bills. It’s means-tested and expenses are taken into account, and shared out between siblings (and grandchildren!) but it definitely happens.

Having said that, costs of care are much lower here - there isn’t the same preponderance of luxurious, private care chains à la BUPA and Hilton here and there are various state aid schemes to apply for.

You can “divorce” from your parents through the courts, but it means removing yourself from any inheritance as well.

Part if the problem -where my PIL are anyway - is that the choice is super expensive, luxury nursing home or nothing as there are virtually no state run facilities left. It is currently costing the taxpayer £72,000 a year to care for my MIL in one of these places, as she has no assets and only a tiny pension. That’s just not sustainable. I can’t believe that the state couldn’t provide a decent (not luxury) level of care for less than that.

@XingMing

Butt, if you or your parent has cancer or heart disease, then it's unequivocally the responsibility of the NHS to provide necessary care via whatever care setting is considered appropriate, and the care is free at the point of delivery.

People who are affected or incapacitated by dementia, but who are otherwise in good physical health (which is surprisingly common) effectively fall outside the NHS because their needs are viewed as social and residential rather than medical. There's a major test case in progress at the moment which aims to establish where the demarcation lines are and what the rules for Continuing Health Care should be when we have an increasing elderly population and rising incidence of dementias. The powers-that-be are watching the outcome with bated breath.

Someone will correct any glaring errors I am sure, but this is some of the explanation. Like everything else at public policy level, it's vastly complicated and there's a lot of scope for unintended consequences.

I take on board all the posts about MH being worse now than in the past, or at least that it's much more frequently diagnosed. It seems, to me, that this is yet another example of the old line: the past is a different country; they did things differently there.

A diagnosis of cancer or heart failure does not lead to automatic entitlement to CHC funding. The funding is needs not condition based.

You can “divorce” from your parents through the courts, but it means removing yourself from any inheritance as well
oh that's interesting!
Thank you for the illumination miimble

Possibly not, Butt. However a diagnosis for cancer or heart problems is viewed as NHS responsibility to treat and care. MH/dementia is much harder (near impossible) to obtain. Therefore, it is more straightfoward to get continuing care for heart care or cancer, because the system considers them diseases. Dementia-related conditions are categorised as geriatric degenerative decline. However you define it, it does not lighten the load for anyone shouldering the caring burden.

@XingMing

Possibly not, Butt. However a diagnosis for cancer or heart problems is viewed as NHS responsibility to treat and care. MH/dementia is much harder (near impossible) to obtain. Therefore, it is more straightfoward to get continuing care for heart care or cancer, because the system considers them diseases. Dementia-related conditions are categorised as geriatric degenerative decline. However you define it, it does not lighten the load for anyone shouldering the caring burden.

I disagree that MH/ dementia is not considered NHS responsibility, and that dementias aren't considered diseases.

You can disagree as much as you like @buttheywereonlysatilites. Xing is right. There are enough of us posting on this thread with personal experience that bears her out.

@VinylDetective

You can disagree as much as you like *@buttheywereonlysatilites. Xing* is right. There are enough of us posting on this thread with personal experience that bears her out.

Absolutely right.

Many health related services e.g. provision of carers come under the banner of social care.

Regardless of your political view point, it’s important to realise that NHS funding and social care funding is different and when the government talking about how much money they are pumping into the NHS, that doesn’t cover many things that might be regarded as health care.

You might as well argue over what dental care should be covered by the NHS. The reality is that dental cover is limited.

@merrymouse

You might as well argue over what dental care should be covered by the NHS. The reality is that dental cover is limited.

This is probably why i feel strongly about free adult social care.

I and my DD have never had NHS dental care, for my DD, its a legal right but here there has never been a NHS dentist, so i ve paid for her treatments.

We have accepted charges on 3 areas of treatment and now the Govt could say "AE, sports injuries, smoking/alcohol related diseases, physio... drip by drip the NHS stops being Free at the Point of Use and an emergency service only.

Incidentally, (R4 article this morning) many rural parts of the country can't get home social care visits, despite being eligible for free care, the councils don't pay enough, mileage rates are too high & staff shortages, so families have to top up to attract the care.

@JasJas1973, don't know how old your DD is but there are local dentists who see children on the NHS, but not adults. Mine did, until DS was 18, but I had to be on his private list. PM me if you want the name.

I heard the same item on R4 about social care in rural counties and thought of this thread.

[quote XingMing]@JasJas1973, don't know how old your DD is but there are local dentists who see children on the NHS, but not adults. Mine did, until DS was 18, but I had to be on his private list. PM me if you want the name.

I heard the same item on R4 about social care in rural counties and thought of this thread.[/quote]
Thank you but too late now! she is over 18.

We were on lists but only once got offered a dentist... in Newquay.. too far away.
I wrote to Ben Bradshaw (Lab) who was in health dept at the time, he was as much use as a chocolate teapot!

In the end i gave up and paid the fees for her and me, luckily she never needed anything major, i can afford to but many cannot, the waiting lists for the emergency dentist can be long and they don't do a permanent repair, it's extraction or a temp filling.

We just accept all this :(

Funnily enough, my DD is one of these carers, who cover rural areas now, fits it in around uni and placement, her agency pays well and is a good employer BUT many patients have to top up the amount to get care.

@merrymouse I well understand that, as an NHS clinician working in a team that funded by both health and social care. I deal with the dilemma of people needing to sell the family home to fund care regularly. I also have a good understanding of social care v CHC.

[quote buttheywereonlysatilites]@merrymouse I well understand that, as an NHS clinician working in a team that funded by both health and social care. I deal with the dilemma of people needing to sell the family home to fund care regularly. I also have a good understanding of social care v CHC. [/quote]
That may well be, but your posts make it sound as though you are confused about how care is funded.

My 87 yr old mil lives with me- she lived with me and her daughter, my DW, until DW died in July. Mil has some mental health issues and little mobility. She washes dresses and gets her own food unaided, I do her shopping clean her rooms and do her washing, and also make arrangements for eg her to have Covid jab at home. She doesn't use the phone or do anything proactive about contacting her family and has zero friends. It's all on me and it's such a weight. I'm not even sure she likes me much- she loved her daughter but out up with me. She has never been openly homophobic but doesn't take lesbians seriously. How can anyone become so passive and dependent? It is only seven months since DW died and so I'm if course taking time to figure out what to do about mil longer term, especially as her need for personal care and attendance increase. I think she just expects me to get in with it. I'm a young fit healthy 63. I don't want the rest of my life to be wrapped around her care. She has another daughter who lives a five hr drive away who has next to no contact with her mum.

Mil has savings but won't pay for carers and won't consider giving anyone poa. She pays for shopping and offers to pay for household shopping. This situation is untenable. Dw left me with some savings. Am I expected to use them.up paying for carers so I can have an I dependent life?

Almost as mediaeval as expecting the taxpayer to do it

Lets hope you don't need treatment for a medical condition at some point then.

What people always forget that a lot of elderly people don't just have frailty of old age, they are ill. They have dementia or Parkinsons or something else. If someone has Parkinsons at 50, they get care for free. But if they get it at 80, people just shrug their shoulders and say it's personal care. It really isn't.