To think we have to accept that we need to use savings to fund care in old age

[LastDuchessFerrara]

My parents died before reaching old age but I'm now watching family and friends caring - in one form or another - for older relatives.

Many seem to be in denial about the fact that savings, pensions and, in some cases equity in their home, needs to be used to enable their relatives to continue to stay in their homes or go into care.

"But they've worked all their lives!" they cry in protest. Well, yes - and now that money needs to be used in their old age.

It's really focussed my mind on how any money I accumulate might not be spent on amazing holidays but paying for cleaners and carers.

I'd be interested in views but please can this not be a "boomer" bashing thread. I know plenty of impoverished old people and plenty of entitled non-boomers.

What about more taxation on overseas investors who are pushing up property prices anyway?

It's not just money it's finding people who are willing to work in these places for the wages that are on offer 🤷🏼‍♀️

Why should care be so expensive? If it’s not expected to make a profit, in a pseudo market, then communal living is very economical-the vast majority of older people living in care need relatively minimal support.

@MrsWooster

Why should care be so expensive? If it’s not expected to make a profit, in a pseudo market, then communal living is very economical-the vast majority of older people living in care need relatively minimal support.

Not when it comes to LA funded care. You need to really not be able to manage on 4 home visits a day to even be considered. There may be self funders who need minimal support but they have made the decision it's preferable to any alternatives having taken the cost into account.

@MrsWooster

Why should care be so expensive? If it’s not expected to make a profit, in a pseudo market, then communal living is very economical-the vast majority of older people living in care need relatively minimal support.

It isn’t a pseudo market. It’s a real one. People with minimal care needs don’t go into care homes, it’s a last resort when 24/7 care is required. It’s expensive because it’s labour intensive.

It's not just money it's finding people who are willing to work in these places for the wages that are on offer 🤷🏼‍♀️

Yes, wages are a problem - caring is difficult, skilled work. It may be difficult to quantify the skills required in terms of qualifications, but there is a mismatch between money currently available to pay carers through a LA and the standard of care that most people require.

Caring is difficult skilled work
Yes and because local authorities do not have the resources to meet the demand they cannot afford to acknowledge this fact
They need caring to be widely seen as something requiring no special skills or training that anyone can do (more specifically any woman) otherwise they would have no hope of persuading families to take on some of the caring burden

@Greeneyedminx

I have worked in several care homes and nursing homes in the past. At the last nursing home I worked at they had a carer’s forum, to enable all carers and registered nurses to have a say in the running of the home. The actual owners of the home were very up front and transparent in their discussions with the staff, and tried very hard to ensure all the clients living in the home, had the best care possible. Pay was a regular feature that was brought up in discussions with the owners, although they paid slightly higher rates than other homes in the area, it wasn’t fantastic wages. One day the owners brought a break down of all the outgoings and money received by them, to the meeting. It was an eye opener to see exactly how much money received by the local council for payment of care was received, far lower than we all thought. That was the only stream of income received into the home, once all the payments for wages - all care staff, laundry staff, kitchen staff, groundsman was added up, it was a massive chunk of the money received. Mortgage, insurances, annual fees to CQC, annual service fees for the lifts, fire safety, mandatory training and refresher training for all staff, costs of weekly hazardous waste removal, costs of food, specialist equipment, beds, hoists, pressure relieving mattresses, cleaning products, window cleaning, specialist cleaning of carpets etc, costs of medications to be returned to chemist, medical supplies, PPE, incontinence pads, bedding and towels. 24 hour heating. The costs were absolutely astounding once they were all added up. The only way the home remained viable was if it was operated at full capacity all the time, these owners were good people who really did put their staff and clients first, but eventually they called it a day and closed the home as it wasn’t viable and certainly not profitable. It was a shock to the local community who did value the home and did recognise that it was a good, caring home. The local authority now has to send all new clients many miles away to other homes as this was the only nursing home in the community . I don’t know what the answer is to this ever growing problem, but I know there are good and caring homes out there, but people must be willing to pay for them, which unfortunately they aren’t at the moment. My DM had to go into a nursing home after suffering from a stroke, this was about fifteen miles from where she lived and was the most local one to her. The home itself was okay, but rather clinical, she died following a further stroke a few months later, and I was relieved when it happened, I’m ashamed to admit. Due to how disabled she was following the initial stroke, there was no way I could have looked after her at my home, or hers, as neither had the facilities she required. My DM paid for her care as she had savings, which was the right way to use them, her needs came first. She also needed two carers for everything, and there would have been no one to help me, plus I would have had to leave my job, with no prospects of getting another one later on. Sometimes we need to look at the wider picture and perhaps re-think the best way forward for everyone. This issue is not going away anytime soon.

Read this post from a few days ago, to understand the economics of running a care home, and how fragile the balance is.

^^ That was to MrsWooster*.

Families aren’t the answer to 24 hour care needs. I looked after mine for the time between crisis hitting and their admission to the care home. It was 17 days and I was on my knees by the end of it. And that was with carers coming in four times a day for personal care.

As they get shorter of funding investigation of deprivation of assets will get more intensive. Anyone who thinks it won’t is deluded

Lol! Councils can't even enforce basic planning breaches.

The Council have to prove you knew you needed care or it was reasonable to assume you would in the future, at the time you took the action with your finances.

Assets earned or in your name belong to you not the 'council, some people seem to want to live in a country where an expensive gift given 10 or 20 years before care was needed, actually belonged to the state all along!

Oh give it a rest with “some people” followed by a completely made up piece of nonsense, Jas.

You think everyone should have everything at the taxpayers’ expense - fuck knows where you think the money’s coming from - other people disagree. 🤷‍♀️

I can see a time when it will be necessary for councils to pursue deprivation of assets much more actively. Anyone hired to investigate will have financial targets, and remuneration is likely to reflect how successful they have been, like commission sales.

Councils can't even enforce basic planning breaches.

Except they can, which is why it is better to check planning law before making an expensive mistake.

Assets earned or in your name belong to you not the council

Yes, but that doesn't affect the criteria the council and HMRC use to decide whether you qualify for LA care or need to pay tax.

I agree with you @XingMing. I don’t think it’s very far away either.

@merrymouse

It's not just money it's finding people who are willing to work in these places for the wages that are on offer 🤷🏼‍♀️

Yes, wages are a problem - caring is difficult, skilled work. It may be difficult to quantify the skills required in terms of qualifications, but there is a mismatch between money currently available to pay carers through a LA and the standard of care that most people require.

Lack of staff and CH places is perhaps a far bigger issue than who pays for the care its self.

My mum spent the last weeks of her life in a community hospital, there was nowhere else for her to go, as EOL, her place was fully funded and additional monies were no issue, even a "at home" care package (4 x 45min visits) was never even quoted for by locally agencies as they also didn't have enough staff.

some people seem to want to live in a country where an expensive gift given 10 or 20 years before care was needed, actually belonged to the state all along!

No, nobody has suggested this.

@merrymouse

Councils can't even enforce basic planning breaches.

Except they can, which is why it is better to check planning law before making an expensive mistake.

Assets earned or in your name belong to you not the council

Yes, but that doesn't affect the criteria the council and HMRC use to decide whether you qualify for LA care or need to pay tax.

Not ime, easier/cheaper to grant retrospective planning than go through a series of on going and very expensive appeals, i could name 3 glaring breaches of planning with 2 miles of me that the CC backed down on and approved, despite enforcement notices served but never acted on, of course other councils might act differently.

Perhaps read up on what councils can and can't do in regard to deprivation of assets?

www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs40_deprivation_of_assets_in_social_care_fcs.pdf

HMRC is a completely different matter, there is little discretion in tax law for most people.

I can see a time when it will be necessary for councils to pursue deprivation of assets much more actively
I agree this seems very likely...it could also lead to some very 'interesting' and counter productive outcomes 😶 (I can't quite muster up the brain power to imagine what they might be though 🤦🏼‍♀️)

Not ime, easier/cheaper to grant retrospective planning than go through a series of on going and very expensive appeals, i could name 3 glaring breaches of planning with 2 miles of me that the CC backed down on and approved, despite enforcement notices served but never acted on, of course other councils might act differently.

And I have extensive experience working in the construction industry and my experience is different.

I have already pasted your link to Age UK.

www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs40_deprivation_of_assets_in_social_care_fcs.pdf

It does not say "Do not worry, do what you want with your money, the local authority can't do anything".

My first post on this subject was to correct the idea that it is easy to escape care home costs by simply transferring assets. I'm sorry that that has touched a nerve. This subject is obviously very personal to many people. I still think it's best to be aware of legislation and not to assume that it won't be enforced.

Lack of staff and CH places is perhaps a far bigger issue than who pays for the care its self
perhaps we will end up with a kind of 'national service' where everyone has to do a stint in an elder care facility?
too far fetched.....?

The law on deprivation of assets can be changed any time. And probably will be over the next few years as more people need care.

@oil0W0lio, I think a year in elder care is one of the community service options available to school leavers in Germany -- if they still have the scheme? The Armed Forces, education, elder care: I don't know if there are others: hospital porters perhaps.

The Dutch have some interesting schemes that bring students and elderly people under shared umbrellas, but I believe they stop short of full on care. It's more about mutual support and companionship.

If we reach a point where most people accept that there will be no inheritance from their parents because it will all be needed to fund care this will surely make it harder to persuade families to do any of the care themselves🤔
many older people use possible inheritance as leverage to get their families to do things for them once that can no longer be used won't it change the balance of power?
There are lots of moving parts to this problem!

@VinylDetective

Oh give it a rest with “some people” followed by a completely made up piece of nonsense, Jas.

You think everyone should have everything at the taxpayers’ expense - fuck knows where you think the money’s coming from - other people disagree. 🤷‍♀️

But all right for you to call me deluded? but giving out insults when you lose an argument is what many people do. I ve made nothing up.

You have either been deliberately obtuse or you just don't get it do you?
People pay taxes throughout their lives and whether your poor or rich, you deserve dignity in your last years, that shouldn't be dependant on wealth, which is what you are ok with.

I have explained where the money can come from without increasing taxes, but what you want, by the logic of your argument (and doubtless because you can afford it) is to reduce healthcare funding, after all "fuck knows where the money is coming from"