To think we have to accept that we need to use savings to fund care in old age

[LastDuchessFerrara]

My parents died before reaching old age but I'm now watching family and friends caring - in one form or another - for older relatives.

Many seem to be in denial about the fact that savings, pensions and, in some cases equity in their home, needs to be used to enable their relatives to continue to stay in their homes or go into care.

"But they've worked all their lives!" they cry in protest. Well, yes - and now that money needs to be used in their old age.

It's really focussed my mind on how any money I accumulate might not be spent on amazing holidays but paying for cleaners and carers.

I'd be interested in views but please can this not be a "boomer" bashing thread. I know plenty of impoverished old people and plenty of entitled non-boomers.

I think assisted suicide should be legalised.

If you have cancer , care costs a are not free , our mum had palliative care in a home and had to pay for it.

Yes, of course people should have to pay for care if they need it.

Why wouldn't they?

My parents saved all their lives.
They probably should have gone abroad more in early retirement but actually at the end , despite the fact mum was grumpy about it , they bought in care pretty much when they needed it and then mum died and “ masterminded “ dads care ( dementia ) as my sis is abroad.

I moved him to a home a mile away from me, that I knew well through work just a mile away. They looked after him well. I visited most days and took him out a few times a week. He gained weight , quality of life and a bit of a social life ( sadly limited when mum was ill as she had the “ brains “ but was physically very limited - he lost weight cos she’d share a meal for one 😱. He had a good 9m before he deteriorated and died at his home with the carers he knew and had known him when there was still some “ dad “ left.

Pretty much cost his share of the house but yknow, that’s what it was for.

I want my home to go to my kids not to fund care home fees

Totally unreasonable. If you move home, do you expect the rest of us tax-payers to pay for you to keep one house, and live in another?

If your home is a care-home, that's your home & you need to pay for it.

My ma only gets a state pension and has no assets and she’s allowed to keep £30 a week, the rest pays for her care and she’s under social services. Luckily the home she is in is good, loads of homes that take social services are dreadful

@Radio4Rocks

My parents both had to pay for their care and they had the savings to do so. Because they had the funds they had more choices about what care to have as time went by.

My father thought it very unfair that people who haven't saved got everything for free and felt there should be a compulsory savings scheme for those in work. He had no problem with the genuinely hard up getting free care but very annoyed with those who "pissed it up the wall" then demanded the same care that he was paying for.

There is a compulsory scheme for those in work. In fact there are two. They are called National Insurance and PAYE.

Why do people assume elderly = old folks home.

Touch wood, none of my elderly relatives, or my husbands come to think of it.

It's like everyone assumes when we get old, we wont be able to clean, dress ourselves wipe our own arses.

Surely nursing homes are for people who cant look after themselves, when may elderly can.

if he goes into a home the local authorities can only take his half of the house into account for care home fees

So, just whom do you think is actually going to pay for your father's housing costs?

Where do you think councils should cut back? On before & after school clubs for children in poverty, for example? Or cutting back on funding for women's refuges?

@poppycat10

Care homes are rubbish. They don't care and they're not homes. They rake in the fees and do the minimum. God help anyone who doesn't have family or friends who can eg make sure someone has enough pyjamas or get them drinks they like.

family & friends are not in a position to provide the type of care which is needed though, it's not feasible to expect relatives to give up their lives and source of income in order to care for elderly relatives. It's not just pyjamas and drinks

Both of my in-laws had dementia and paid £1200-£1400 per week in an ok home. Not much fun but basic care delivered. They bought a modest home for a modest amount decades before.
Unfortunately, yuppies moved into the area and in-laws' property price went through the roof.
Maybe that was a good thing as they had to self fund. Staggeringly , those who had absolutely nothing whatsoever also went to the same home and received the same, very basic care but paid nothing.

The moral of this story is, don't make or save any money as it won't help you at the end.

I think that at some stage there will have to be a return to several generations living in the same home. Grandparents (while youngish) caring for grandchildren while the middle generation are at work earning.
Then as the need changes the responsibility will cycle through the generations.

So many risks with this I know (family dynamics and more) but it might suit some. I suppose people will have to combine resources but this could allow them to buy more suitable homes. A few generations living together could save on childcare costs?

Another option is that when homes are sold the money can be invested and the income used to contribute to care fees. This plus pension plus family help might protect a lump sum but again so many ifs and buts.

We're aiming to pay off our mortgage and try and save a pension. We're tying to help our DC now. We don't save much for them (just £20 per month each into a pension for them). We're doing what we can.

We're also trying to stay healthy and to keep an eye on our health to maximise our chances of better health in older age (both overweight though, which isn't great)

My FIL has a life rent on his ex-wife's property (she requested this in her will, he has no ownership of the property at all. His ex-wife bought it more than 20 years after they split up so is in trust for now but ultimately will belong to DH and SIL). Her letter of wishes asks that we care for him always but I said that there's no way we could commit to paying for any care he needs to the disgust of my SIL. SIL said "I'll work 2 jobs to pay for his care" sadly she doesn't realise that where we are care fees are people £1,000 per week. She only earns just over that a month.

@LadyCatStark

The problem will come in, say, 40 years time when many people of my generation will need care but will have no savings due to high living costs, no house to sell due to having to rent, no state pension probably, no final salary private pensions, no inheritance due the the previous generation having to spend it all on their care. What happens then? Do we all just work ourselves into the grave?

This. Many many people atm are struggling with day to day costs so thinking about what's going to happen in 30/40 years isnt even on their agenda. They're just trying to survive this month.

YANBU and that is what currently happens I think. Your assets are used to fund your care above a certain low point (£23k?) assuming your OH isn't still living in the family home. Seems fair and reasonable to me. Help from the local council is means-tested.
Happy to have to pay less though if some other scheme can be dreamt up that means everyone gets the care they need.
If you want to keep the benefit of the asset (house) in the family pot, you have to provide more of the hands on care yourself as a family.
In France I understand people are responsible for funding the care of their parents and I certainly wouldn't want that here but in practice I would always make sure elderly parents were cared for whether that meant I could ultimately inherit anything or not.

OpenShop

I'm not even 40 and know people the same age already relying on what they will be left in inheritance for their future/retirement. Instead of building a better career, saving and investing more in pensions they talk about what they'll get when their parents die and make irresponsible financial decisions as a result“

Marvellous plan, until it’s all left to the Donkey Sanctuary

If the logic is that the elderly should be forced to pay for their nursing care in old age... why can't that be taken further? to inc all aspects of healthcare?

So, dementia tax?

@AlwaysCheddar

If I get a stage where I don’t have a clue what planet I’m on, id rather someone put a pillow over my face than pay thousands on a grotty nursing home.

My Uncle developed dementia in his 70s and he had seen what had happened to his own mum when she had the same and didnt want to go into a care home. He took his own life.

However my mum also developed dementia as well as ovarian cancer and had complicated needs so unlike her brother she spent the last twelve months in a care home. It was an excellent home in a little village and she was well looked after but she was lucky to have enough in savings to pay for it, She spent over 60k for that one year. Although she had high needs so went into a special nursing section of the home. My sister had power of attourney and had put her house on the market in case she needed to use that money as well, as we didnt know how long she had left. I do feel a little guilty as I had a conversation with her where I promised her she wouldnt go in a home when she was going through it with her own mum, but it was impossible to manage her in her home at the end.

If I need the same care one day, I would probably follow my uncles way.

If the logic is that the elderly should be forced to pay for their nursing care in old age... why can't that be taken further? to inc all aspects of healthcare?
True.
In Ireland there is a fair deal scheme afaik it is 20% of your home if you die within months you lose out if your in a care home years it is a fair deal.
The public NH if you've no equity are awful.

@1Morewineplease

Both of my in-laws had dementia and paid £1200-£1400 per week in an ok home. Not much fun but basic care delivered. They bought a modest home for a modest amount decades before. Unfortunately, yuppies moved into the area and in-laws' property price went through the roof. Maybe that was a good thing as they had to self fund. Staggeringly , those who had absolutely nothing whatsoever also went to the same home and received the same, very basic care but paid nothing.

The moral of this story is, don't make or save any money as it won't help you at the end.

Exactly! It is sad and so unfair I think. I don't have all the answers but something needs to be done here and not everyone has the space to move their parents in with them either.

Colin Brewer
O. LET ME NOT GET ALZHEIMER'S, SWEET HEAVEN: Why many people prefer death or active deliverance to living with dementia.

This book’s quite relevant to this discussion.

I also plan to do away with myself if I get dementia. My mum is going through it now, and it is heartbreaking because she always said she would rather die than lose her marbles and yet now that she is on that road, I am not fearless and kind or unkind enough to help her. I daren’t even bring it up with her! There’s no point because she’s not of sound mind so she won’t be judged able to make that decision and there is no record of her wants in any useful way. In any case who wants to be complicit in the death of their parent, even if the parent wanted it? It’s too horrible to consider.

As pp have mentioned, the problem is that once diagnosed it is often too late to do anything about it, as no doctor will help you if you’re not in sound mind, and of course, that’s the problem in the first place!

I’m planning to and have spoken to my family about it so that they can step in and fight my battle with full knowledge that it is what I will be wanting. Thanks to this post acting as a reminder, I will also tell my doctor to put it on my medical records so that there is a recorded history of my hopes. I don’t want to suck up 500k of possible inheritance on care home fees. I want to go out with a dignified farewell and leave some cash for my kids to enjoy life with. It will take some balls to leave the party early but I hope that I am able to do this if dementia is my fate.

Rightfully, the focus of the medical profession is to save lives rather than help people die, even if this means that at the end of life people are kept alive for longer than they may wish. (Read Being Mortal which is a passionate plea for more humanity at end of life, instead of the relentless focus on keeping people alive because that’s what feels less uncomfortable for doctors and families alike. Obvs it would be so hard to turn down an operation that could ‘make mum better’ - but what if the recovery is painful and recovery rate is low?)

Also I agree that if you have the money, you should pay for your care. Of course! Bad enough being young with housing and employment issues. It shouldn’t be up to them to pay for the care of people who can afford it themselves.

I know I keep saying it, but please don't right off everyone living with dementia as not having a life worth living. My DDad was diagnosed 10 years ago and is still with it in terms of conversation, doesn't mix up our names, is loved and loving, adored his GC and meeting people and church etc. He lives with plenty of care and support in his own home. His life is as precious to him as mine is to me.

@QueenoftheAir

I want my home to go to my kids not to fund care home fees

Totally unreasonable. If you move home, do you expect the rest of us tax-payers to pay for you to keep one house, and live in another?

If your home is a care-home, that's your home & you need to pay for it.

But it sounds like an absolute rip off

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

I know I keep saying it, but please don't right off everyone living with dementia as not having a life worth living. My DDad was diagnosed 10 years ago and is still with it in terms of conversation, doesn't mix up our names, is loved and loving, adored his GC and meeting people and church etc. He lives with plenty of care and support in his own home. His life is as precious to him as mine is to me.

Your dad has been quite lucky so far, I hope it continues. My FIL had no quality of life whatsoever. The only 4 people he recognised were his wife and sons, not me (his DIL of 13 years), not his GC. His memory was so poor he couldn't enjoy a football game as he couldn't remember who was playing or what the score was if he glanced away from the TV. He was frequently aggressive through fear and confusion. It was heartbreaking to see this lovely man, full of joie de vivre, reduced to this. It was absolutely a fate worse than death and he would have been the first to agree.

As usual one tiny part of my lengthy paragraph was taken out of context.! I agreed that my home probably will end up paying for care home fees but I just don't want it too! I don't have the answers and again it'll be the ones that have assets paying for everyone else. I know it sounds selfish and it probably is but it is always the ones that pay for everything in life who end up paying more. I know that sounds very bitter. It just feels unfair.
I wished they could bring in a ' dementia tax' or something similar that is properly regulated. I would pay this. I know nothing is easy when it comes to our old age.