To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

The second sex was 1940s I think.

There’s plenty discussed it prior to that too

I don’t have a gender. When I see “gender” on a form I score it out and write “sex”.

How do slugs feel?

Sluggish

@Quaagars

I think that’s rude and unacceptable, but a separate issue from people being asked to announce their pronouns when they may not want to

OK, yes I agree that it's a separate issue to people being asked to announce their pronouns, you shouldn't have to if you don't want to.
People constantly calling someone "he" instead of she or vice versa as they think they are right and the other is being ridiculous, not the same though and does happen a lot if MN is anything to go by.

Why should people be forced to call he or she pronouns if they know they don't believe it's true?

I think this is really hard. I am biologically female. I am a woman. Giving birth, breastfeeding, being a mother are some of the ways in which I have felt most myself. But I was constantly told growing up that I was “quite male” in the way I behaved and my outlook. But I didn’t feel it, I just felt like myself. For me, it just feels like I’m a unique human (like we all are) and I have my own personality, and there’s no “gender identity” which comes into it. Although I am a woman and the fact I am female has shaped many of my experiences and I wear my womaness as a badge of pride. But I don’t have a gender identity- in many ways I am not stereotypically female. So for me “identifying” as female means nothing. I am just myself and myself is a woman. BUT! And it’s a really important but, this is just my own lived experience - I can’t extrapolate that to ANYONE ELSE - I have literally no idea how anyone else feels and what their experience of their body and identity might be. So I just can’t dismiss gender identity as nonsense 🤷🏻‍♀️

YANBU I am a woman but I don't wear make-up or high heels.

I'm not dissmissing anyone's feelings I don't think.

But basing policies and law on gender identity instead of sex denies all the biological realities that mean women are exploited and discriminated against more often.

No one says if you dislike male or female stereotypes you should get a hard time. However pretending it's the same thing and it doesn't affect others is disingenuous.

Dammit, dear HR, I apologise - several times I made assumptions about people in my previous post.

I wrote "people who currently identify as women" but the truth is, I'm just assuming that based on their clothing, hair, and behaviour. Although all the people who comment on my legs do use the female toilets. So, is it better to say "people who currently appear to me to identify as women by reason of their toilet preference",
Or is there a less unwieldy way of referring to this group of employees? Wouldn't want to offend.

I also fell into the trap of referring to men - such a beginner error. I should have said, "people who currently appear to me to identify as men".

But even then what I've written is a terrible generalisation as I shouldn't have made any generalisations based on gender whatsoever. As it will likely offend someone, or out them, or trigger their dysphoria. I should have not observed the apparent difference between women and men at all, so I apologise for that.

I really, truly need some more training, HR. Can you book me in on a week-long course somewhere and I'll become a Champion? Something residential would be nice... I haven't been to central London in a while... just let me know what the per diem is and I'll send you the expense claim...

I think that's possible true. It seems to be for most I know in most spaces. I've wrestled with gender identity at times, partially I think because of social and cultural training how X personality traits and/or Y emotions are so often gendered compounded by how other people gendered me and rated how I've performed gender. I grew up in a community with an attitude of having failed by not being born male and then failing at being female because of how I am, and then just as I was working through that the hyper-individualized form of identity became big in many spaces fucked with my head a bit. I've come to lean more towards identity being things about myself meeting other people and wider society - some of the things I choose/attempt to put forward, some I have little to no control over like my voice, and some being just their perception and nothing to do with me at all but how they've identified me does affect the situation. I think being in less space where I'm rated on how well I fit in some box has helped.

The only times I've disliked being referred to in the masculine is when it's been either a drunk who wanted an argument or someone trying to make a point about how unfeminine they think I am/make a point about gender. In both cases, the issue isn't the 'wrong gender' term, but that it's being used in a hostile way. Same as for when feminine terms are used in a nasty way. I've had people make a really big deal about calling me Mrs. because I'm married even when I've not used a title or used Ms but they see my silicone ring and I've seen ma'am used as a weapon many times.

I have very fond memories of little old ladies saying "thank you young man" when I was a baggy clothes wearing teenager. I never corrected them. The only time I can recall correcting someone is when someone has been loudly annoyed that I was ignoring them when I didn't twig they were talking about me in the masculine and once for a sports related event as it was via email and it was important they knew my sex for the event in question before I showed up. Usually in real life, people hear me talk and correct themselves and if they don't, it doesn't really bother me as long as it's without malice.

If people want to talk about part of their perception of themself as a gender identity, I think there are ways it can be done much like many other identities that have been mentioned; however, I think the idea we should be able to entirely control how others percieve us is nonsense and the form it takes with gender identity these days I think does more harm in encouraging people to try to do such an impossible task (which can make the distress of dysphoria worse) or used to beat people with than it does anything beneficial like encourage acceptance or understanding.

I don't identify as any specific gender, as it's currently understood to be. In fact if I were pressed to state my gender, I'd probably say I were agender / genderfree. I'm female, have had a child, I'm straight. But I don't "feel" feminine by any measure that seems to be in vogue these days. I don't wear lipstick, skirts, heels, or any of that stuff. Don't have long hair. Don't even shave my legs.

I couldn't give a crap about how other people make themselves comfortable and happy in the privacy of their own homes & spaces. As long as it impinges on no-one else's rights, freedom or dignity, I say good for them.

Legislation based on sex is easy, straightforward and factual.
There are only 2 choices. Male or female. Based on biological fact.

To make laws based on 'gender' which is completely random, entirely subjective and can apparently change on a daily basis is quite frankly absurd.

We're told that 'gender' just means masculine or feminine, then in the next breath told there are 100's of bloody 'genders'. Which is it?

Because if it's the latter then it makes a mockery of those who say it's about wanting to appear as the opposite sex.

We get no coherent definition of any of this crap yet we're expected, not only to accept it, but that we must also alter our own beliefs, reality and our own language on the say so of a tiny minority.

No.

Why would anyone woman care about being called mr instead of Mrs?

I expect people to call me by name. I. Squeak will suffice if it’s a formal setting. I don’t need mrs to be mentioned at all.

Being called by my name has fuck all to do with my sex or with sex role stereotypes though.

Exactly this. It doesnt matter to me at all what people call me, Im not even fussed if they get my name wrong, and I never have been, not even when I was a child.

I know Im me, and thats what matters, someone calling me Mr, or him, or even Pale rather than Pole doesnt change the fact that Im me. Other peoples` opinions do not change who you are.
I think that people often spend too much time considering about what other people think about them.

I have also never corrected anyone when they have got my name wrong, or called me by an incorrect title. I either knew or could work out that they were referring to me, which is the purpose of names, pronouns and titles, so they had served their purpose and correction was unnecessary.

Getting your name wrong or calling you by the wrong name isn't the same as being constantly misgendered though.
I know if someone kept referring to me as he and him after being told it wasn't would go beyond just being called the wrong name occasionally.
If someone called me he, I could laugh it off with a face.
If it was all the time they kept doing it I'd steadily be more like WTF.

Why, though Quaagars? What someone else calls you has absolutely zero bearing on you being you.

“My pronouns are Her Majesty”

Ooh I like that!

Say what?

I know society imposes gender onto me all the time in the way of beliefs about what women think, want, feel etc, and I was socialised to think I should be kind and nice to others all the time.

I also know men have in the past considered themselves entitled to my time, attention, and my body.

That is all gender, and it is gender I am doung my damnest to fight against.

I most certainly don’t have a gender identity, or a soul or any kind of magical woman essence that makes me particularly suited to the shitty, unpaid work that no one wants to do which therefore falls to women.

Why, though Quaagars? What someone else calls you has absolutely zero bearing on you being you

No, I'll carry on being me, that will never have any bearing on how I feel myself and who I am.
If someone was to keep on calling me Sir or he even after being told otherwise, wouldn't make them any less of a rude arsehole.

@Fallingirl

I know society imposes gender onto me all the time in the way of beliefs about what women think, want, feel etc, and I was socialised to think I should be kind and nice to others all the time.

I also know men have in the past considered themselves entitled to my time, attention, and my body.

That is all gender, and it is gender I am doung my damnest to fight against.

I most certainly don’t have a gender identity, or a soul or any kind of magical woman essence that makes me particularly suited to the shitty, unpaid work that no one wants to do which therefore falls to women.

How is that all different to your sex as female?

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Legislation based on sex is easy, straightforward and factual. There are only 2 choices. Male or female. Based on biological fact.

To make laws based on 'gender' which is completely random, entirely subjective and can apparently change on a daily basis is quite frankly absurd.

We're told that 'gender' just means masculine or feminine, then in the next breath told there are 100's of bloody 'genders'. Which is it?

Because if it's the latter then it makes a mockery of those who say it's about wanting to appear as the opposite sex.

We get no coherent definition of any of this crap yet we're expected, not only to accept it, but that we must also alter our own beliefs, reality and our own language on the say so of a tiny minority.

No.

Then why not fight to reclaim the meaning of gender as man or woman. Instead of joining the TRAs and claiming there is no such thing as gender?

I'm more than happy to be called Mr or he. I've a gender neutral first name and it can be quite enlightening in correspondence with someone who thinks I'm male.
As for gender identity .... no I'm not going to go along with the kind of sex stereotyping that this means. As a society we seemed to be making decent progress in this regard until the trans rights movement started muscling their way in.

Then why not fight to reclaim the meaning of gender as man or woman. Instead of joining the TRAs and claiming there is no such thing as gender?

Woman isn't a 'gender' it's the word to describe and adult human female.

Gender is a set of sex role stereotypes.

How exactly are TRA's claiming there's no such thing as gender? If they where how would they be trans gender? No stereotypes then nothing to 'trans' too

They want to pretend there is not such thing as sex.

But you know that.

I have a sense of gender identity. I feel female (& am female bodied) and the thought of having a male body makes me shudder. I agree that our gender identity is shaped by societal influences and gender stereotypes but I don’t agree that it doesn’t exist at all. I think I’m lucky that my gender identity matches my biological sex and have empathy with those who don’t. Perhaps in a perfect world without sexism people wouldn’t feel that mismatch but as we don’t live in that world trans people do exist and I support those who identify in that way.
I don’t particularly want to answer a million posters saying “what is a woman?” to me off the back of my post and it’s fine if you disagree with what I said above. I so often ignore these threads but I think it can give posters a disproportionate idea that most MNers are gender critical and I don’t think that’s true.

@MiddlesexGirl

I'm more than happy to be called Mr or he. I've a gender neutral first name and it can be quite enlightening in correspondence with someone who thinks I'm male. As for gender identity .... no I'm not going to go along with the kind of sex stereotyping that this means. As a society we seemed to be making decent progress in this regard until the trans rights movement started muscling their way in.

See, this is where we differ then as I wouldn't like it if someone kept referring to me as male.