To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

Wow, so many votes.

Wow so so many very explanatory posts here. Kudos to all.

hayloft by mother mother starts playing ominously

@Datun

The way gender was explained to me was a bit of an eye-opener.

It was quite simply that women are oppressed on the basis of their sex, and gender is the means by which it's done.

Due to things like inheritance, men wanted to control women's fertility, pregnancy and offspring. And of course, their sexual availability to only one man to ensure the lineage.

So women needed to be controlled (oppressed) on the basis of their sex.

And that's where gender steps in. Because you have to find the means to do it.

So women are too uneducated to vote, too unintelligent to be educated, they need to stay in the home, not get involved in business, cant be independent and own their own property, can't have a bank account. And they need to be sexually available to the man who owns them.

And of course, this is all true. Rape within marriage was legal. We couldn't own property or get a mortgage. We weren't accepted into university. And our abuse at the hands of men was not recognised.

I'm not sure exactly how far we've come, to be honest!

But that's the way it was explained to me.

And although some gender roles might seem positive, they still appear to serve a purpose. So women are 'nurturing and caring'. Which just means they are going to put men and everyone else, ahead of themselves. It still keeps them down.

Hence the absolute explosion of rage when women don't conform to this. Strong, articulate women in business, get called mouthy or a ball breaker. Women who don't nurture or care are called unnatural.

Whore, tart, etc, for women who have lots of sexual partners. Of course, no such slur for promiscuous men, because it doesn't serve the purpose).

So when people say sex role stereotypes, that's exactly what it means. The stereotypical roles that are imposed on women. And of course, men have some too. That probably accounts for a lot of the homosexual transsexuals, who weren't too keen on conforming to strong masculinity or toxic male sex roles.

So feminists want to abolish gender. Because it's a patriarchal tool of control.

And hence why I don't believe in a gender identity, because the roles comes from without, not within.

Anyone who does, to my mind, is cementing gender roles as innate.

That's how it was explained to me. And as a framework, so far, it's been infallible. It fits every scenario I can think of.

Gender identity as some kind of inner neurological, or religious feeling that you're the opposite sex, is, to me, a made up term to explain why some men don't want to be men. (Or women, women).

Great post Datun.

Now maybe one of the 150 or so people who voted YABU could give us an equally comprehensive description of what 'gender identity' is, and why they think children should be taught about it in school.

For anyone who doesn't believe that this nonsense is being taught to children in schools, look up the 'genderbread person' or the 'gender unicorn' which have been used in schools as 'teaching aids' to indoctrinate children and encourage them to believe that they have or should have a 'gender identity'.

@Datun - yes - that's it!

As a couple of pp have mentioned, I've seen several job application forms lately which ask if my gender matches what I was assigned at birth. I know what they think they're asking, but it's not going to help them identify trans people. I happily tick the yes box, because I was essentially "assigned" and raised agender by parents who didn't believe in gender stereotypes. None of us called it that, of course, but in today's terms that's what it was. In fact I identify as a feminist, because I am female and have spent my life being discriminated against on the grounds of that femaleness.

Exactly, like saying it's Miss/Mrs, and someone just smirking and carrying on calling you Sir even after being "put right" as they think you can't possibly be or they think it's funny/going to do what they like anyway.

Never happened in fifty years -- and I am the woman with the very deep voice who is constantly called "sir" on the phone, and used to be mistaken for my father when I was thirteen. It also happens in shops with busy assistants who assume on voice without looking. Either I correct it and they are very apologetic, or I don't bother because what we are talking about is something to which my sex is irrelevant.

Justabout the only useful thing about the current gender hypersensitivity was shutting up a rather tedious git at DWP who was insisting that I must be male because my pension documentation had been been addressed to Mr AQAT Time. I was able to say that he was misgendering me and that I would be prepared to make a complaint about it. Never had a gonk change gear and listen to what I was actually saying (that they had my birth date wrong) quite so fast in my life.

I've seen several job application forms lately which ask if my gender matches what I was assigned at birth

I was asked to complete a survey recently by a student midwife. Maybe she was about to study her ‘how to assign gender to a newborn’ module?

Followed by ‘what to do if you assign the wrong gender and the parents want you to change it!’...

we definitely didn’t have a gender assigning services offered by midwives - we had a 20 week scan and found out then. Do you think they are trying to save money by not doing scans any more?

A lovely young person I know says we should all give our pronouns when we introduce ourselves. I'm fairly sure we shouldn't.

Some interesting research

The American Psychological Association defines gender identity as, “A person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics” (American Psychological Association, Am Psychol 70(9):832–864, 2015). Here we review the evidence that gender identity and related socially defined gender constructs are influenced in part by innate factors including genes. Based on the data reviewed, we hypothesize that gender identity is a multifactorial complex trait with a heritable polygenic component. We argue that increasing the awareness of the biological diversity underlying gender identity development is relevant to all domains of social, medical, and neuroscience research and foundational for reducing health disparities and promoting human-rights protections for gender minorities.

www.researchgate.net/publication/323261652_The_Biological_Contributions_to_Gender_Identity_and_Gender_Diversity_Bringing_Data_to_the_Table

And a review here which found: Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity.

<a class="break-all" href="http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar_url?url=www.klinefelter.se/wp-content/uploads/KS-Gender-Identity-Biological-Basis-review.docx&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2kkhYLmxMaXcsQKL66PoCw&scisig=AAGBfm0mHyMHhjdlI4dk53goDvl97T1j8w&nossl=1&oi=scholarr" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">scholar.google.co.uk/scholar_url?url=www.klinefelter.se/wp-content/uploads/KS-Gender-Identity-Biological-Basis-review.docx&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2kkhYLmxMaXcsQKL66PoCw&scisig=AAGBfm0mHyMHhjdlI4dk53goDvl97T1j8w&nossl=1&oi=scholarr

There's a wealth of other literature out there if people are interested. I think given the evidence it is somewhat unscientific to claim beyond doubt that gender identities do not exist based on personal feelings or ideology. Of course the science could turn out to be incorrect, but to just dismiss the evidence of out hand with no counter evidence is at odds with the empirical method.

I think much like the search for the gay gene it is not political fruitful for trans people to focus on this research, which is why people rarely do. I think whilst there is often an understndable urge to demonstrate look, I was born like this, it's not my fault it ultimately reinforces the idea that being gay or trans has to be justified by biology - when actually it's just okay to be gay or trans whatever the reasons for it.

But on the question of whether gender indentity is a real phenomena a great deal of research exists which suggests that is the case and to pretend otherwise is to willfully ignore the science.

JJ I don’t think anyone doubts that some people really believe in gender identity and that for those people that belief can be really important.

The fact is that according to the results of the poll most of us don’t believe we have a gender identity thus it is entirely insignificant to us and being forced to declare that we do believe in it and having laws, education and healthcare based on a belief in gender ideology and enforcing it is oppressive and requires authoritarian tactics since many are unwilling to go along with it freely.

"But on the question of whether gender indentity is a real phenomena a great deal of research exists which suggests that is the case and to pretend otherwise is to willfully ignore the science"

I believe there is an underlying reason people feel their gender identity doesn't match their sex. However I believe the way to approach that is with treatment to resolve the issue. Gender is inflicted on individuals by cultures/societies. It changes according to time and place. Gender expression in Indonesia is different to gender expression in London. Gender expression in Georgian England, where men wore long hair, wigs, make up and heels, different to gender expression now.

Gender is a construct. The best way to deal with the mismatch is to deconstruct gender.

gender identity and related socially defined gender constructs

What do they mean by this (in bold)? I've only skim read but I can't find much more than in the abstract that jj posted.

They talk about gender diagnosticity which is something I'll have to look more into because it seems to be the answer to this issue:

"About half of the studies investigated “masculinity” and “femininity.” In brief, these constructs imply that masculin-ity and femininity are exclusive endpoints of one dimen-sion. Masculinity is defined in terms of being ‘aggressive, dominant, and independent’ and femininity in terms of being ‘warm, sensitive, and nurturant’. Masculinity and feminin-ity are usually measured with items reflecting sex-specific behaviors, feelings, or even cultural stereotypes as part of personality questionnaires (e.g., “I am often the leader among my friends”, or “I am a kind and gentle person”)."

The concept of gender diagnosticity acknowledges "population and time specific indicators of masculinity or femininity". Is this what they mean by socially defined gender constructs?

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will have better insight than me

to pretend otherwise is to willfully ignore the science

Science like biological sex, and female humans being a Thing and differentiable from male ones?

If you want to have a gender identity crack on. Go nuts. Enjoy yourself. Just don't demand that I redefine myself and my entire world to revolve around your personal view of it, particularly the bits I happen to find misogynistic, regressive and oppressive as a biological female, and leave me alone. I was not put on this earth to keep you happy.

However I believe the way to approach that is with treatment to resolve the issue.

That's what scientists thought for a long time and plenty of trans people were tortured in psychiatric institutions or put through hours and hours of therapy in an attempt to cure them. Much like attempts to cure homosexuality none of it worked and so a more enlightened approach has developed.

The American Psychological Association defines gender identity as, “A person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics”

They seem to have lifted that straight from the Yogyakarta Principles.
yogyakartaprinciples.org/introduction/

Gender identity is understood to refer to each person’s deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the personal sense of the body (which may involve, if freely chosen, modification of bodily appearance or function by medical, surgical or other means) and other expressions of gender, including dress, speech and mannerisms.

The Yogyakarta Principles is a document which was put together by a group of lawyers and other interested parties which is designed to protect the rights of LGBT people. In terms of what it says about gay rights it's pretty good, but it just tags 'or gender identity' onto any statement about sexual orientation.

The Scottish Government actually quoted it as being about 'international best practice' regarding gender identity in their GRA consultation document. It is no such thing. It's a wish list compiled by people who have an interest in enshrining gender identity in law.

Anyway, my 'deeply-felt, inherent sense of being ... a girl, a woman, or a female' is based on the fact that my body is female. What else should it be based on jj? Dress, speech and mannerisms perhaps like the Yogyakarta principles suggest? None of what you posted gives me the slightest indication of what would make me think I had a 'gender identity', or what it might be (other than stereotypes, obviously).

I believe there is an underlying reason people feel their gender identity doesn't match their sex. However I believe the way to approach that is with treatment to resolve the issue. Gender is inflicted on individuals by cultures/societies. It changes according to time and place. Gender expression in Indonesia is different to gender expression in London. Gender expression in Georgian England, where men wore long hair, wigs, make up and heels, different to gender expression now.

Gender is a construct. The best way to deal with the mismatch is to deconstruct gender.

YY.

Datun, your post at 11.42 was excellent, thank you.

No need to put people through hours and hours of therapy unless they want it, JJ. Just encourage them dress and present as they want, and to appreciate their healthy body- just as we allow gay/bi/lesbian people to have consensual relationships with whoever they want.

It is right that Phillip Bunce is free to wear prosthetic breasts and high heels on a part time basis. As he does.
It is right that my female friend need never wear heels, makeup or skirts, and can't be refused a job as a result.

It is not right that a young woman I've known since she was three is going to have her breasts amputated and take testosterone. She has no illness requiring hormone therapy, and no disease in her breasts. I use her male name, and of course she can dress as she pleases.

Even trans organisations confirm that gender is a society constructed set of roles and stereotypes. It's quite unbelievable that you then get the switch to it being an innate quality when transactivists talk about it.

I can easily understand that some people have the propensity to become very distressed over wanting to be the opposite sex, or wanting to exit their own sex. Or whose body is a source of unhappiness.

It's completely different to the, in my opinion, fantasy, that you have something in you that means you're the opposite sex, despite your DNA.

I mean it might be a bit more believable if almost everyone who says it, didn't act in the completely gendered and socialised way as the rest of their sex.

Much like attempts to cure homosexuality

This isn't homosexuality, an attraction to members of your own sex. It's the ideological belief that there is a particular female or male brain in terms of how it is experienced, that it is possible to be born with the wrong sex brain, and the dysphoric distress of being in what you personally see as the wrong sex body. Suggesting that sometimes other issues need to be addressed with this psychological condition has nothing to do with conversion therapy for homosexuality.

JJ can you really describe this as enlightened?

" a young woman I've known since she was three is going to have her breasts amputated and take testosterone. She has no illness requiring hormone therapy, and no disease in her breasts."

Is phalloplasty or orchidectomy enlightened? Mastectomy? Creation of a new vagina from an inverted penis or length of bowel?

Enlightened is not a word I'd use for that. There are several other words, though.

I mean it might be a bit more believable if almost everyone who says it, didn't act in the completely gendered and socialised way as the rest of their sex.

Quite!

Can I just say that since these kinds of threads started "infiltrating" boards other than FWR there's been some great discussion often with posters who may not frequent FWR. I've loved what a penny dropping moment the votes have been causing.

Those of you who may, for whatever reason, have been put off FWR please give it a go. Sure, not every thread may be for you but that's like any board. There is so much knowledge, experience and great resources. Even if you just lurk

But definitely let's keep these conversations in other boards too!

Even trans organisations confirm that gender is a society constructed set of roles and stereotypes. It's quite unbelievable that you then get the switch to it being an innate quality when transactivists talk about it.

And yes. It's not logical. How can it be innate, thinking that now you're an MTF trans person and identify as a woman you can no longer do maths? (Example I've seen)