To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

There is a reason why being pregnant affects capitalism

You can't work as much as a man when you are puking up every morning

You will take time out of work to give birth

Women who get pregnant are less productive in pure economic terms

It's marginal in a 50 year career but capitalism thrives on margins

You can’t “abolish” gender by “swapping” gender, and nor do you need to “swap” gender in order to challenge it, if you feel so inclined. It has nothing to do with individuals and their feelings about whether they are masculine or feminine. It has to do with the perceived roles of the sexes. You challenge gender norms by doing what is usually perceived to be the role of the other sex, not by claiming to be a member of that other sex.

@midgedude and unfortunately because of patriarchal ideas I imagine that with big boobs you're often on the receiving end of 'up for it' assumptions and crude objectification by men.

On the opposite end of the scale I hated my body as a young adult because I was flat chested and didn't live up to the 'woman' figure required of me by society.

These are sex based problems but are enabled by the concept of gender. In a society that didn't bow down to gender stereotypes the only thing women would have to worry about in regards to their bodies was whether they could live in them physically comfortably.

But the more people whack on fake tits to be a 'woman' the more it implies I am a shit woman.

That's because the workplace, under capitalism, is gendered. There is no reason a woman's career should be hampered by gettin prgenant, there is no reason it's assumed women will do the bulk of child care.

You're talking about structural sexism which exists, basically, because men are bigger, stronger and absolutely useless at having babies and (before the invention of safe formula) providing them with appropriate nutrition. It's 'gendered' because of sex.

Where did I say that women should do the bulk of child care? I think child care should be split. This is working decently well in Sweden where a portion of the parental leave is earmarked for the dad in order to help early bonding and make sure that dads are comfortable with being home looking after a sick child.

But women cannot identify out of being the person who gets pregnant, have pregnancy complications, give birth, have complications due to giving birth and breastfeed the baby. They need special protection to make sure that they are not discriminated against due to this. Only a biological female needs this protection. It is completely sex based and has nothing to do with gender.

If you are not female then it is as obvious as the nose on my face that you have and will never have any idea what it feels like to be female.
All it will be is a fantasy, a running away from being yourself.
I identify very strongly as female and will never accept a man deciding that they are female too.
Bollocks to that.

And while we'd love to just abolish structural sexism, it's not easy in the real world. For all that pregnancy and maternity are protected characteristics and legislation is in place to outlaw discrimination, yet it still happens. Choose a man or a young woman with the same or even better qualifications who might get pregnant...
anyway, this has nothing to do with the OPs question as it's about the realities of sexism rather than anything to do with the nebulous concepts of 'gender'.

@BigButtons

If you are not female then it is as obvious as the nose on my face that you have and will never have any idea what it feels like to be female. All it will be is a fantasy, a running away from being yourself. I identify very strongly as female and will never accept a man deciding that they are female too. Bollocks to that.

I agree and I feel like a lot of the trans rage comes from them knowing deep down that they can never be what they truly want to be. That's why they are trying to tear women down and destroy the very notion of what it is to be a woman. Well tough shit. We all have our lot in life. You can't wish away reality.

South Park were bang on the money years ago with the Mr/Mrs Garrison story line.

As transwomen like other males are just as likely to be violent sex offenders as others in their sex class, it is obvious that male violence is all about what sex you are and not your gender identity.

@ErrolTheDragon

And while we'd love to just abolish structural sexism, it's not easy in the real world. For all that pregnancy and maternity are protected characteristics and legislation is in place to outlaw discrimination, yet it still happens. Choose a man or a young woman with the same or even better qualifications who might get pregnant... anyway, this has nothing to do with the OPs question as it's about the realities of sexism rather than anything to do with the nebulous concepts of 'gender'.

I think it has everything to do with gender. Capitalism seeks to wring out every last sliver of surplus value of each human on the planet. But capitalism also needs the working class to reproduce itself - not just in the sense of having babies but in the sense that there is a certain amount of work which needs to be done for the working class to adequately function - that is cooking, cleaning, emotional labour, care of the elderly as well as childcare - this is all generally lumped together and described as reproductive labour and is unpaid despite it being necessary for capitalist profits. Hence the wages for housework campaign which was as much an attempt to point this out as a coherent political demand made to the government.

For this to function capitalism created an ideology that claimed it was natural for women to be in those roles - women are more nurturing, more emotional etc whereas men are more competitive, stronger and rational and thus more suited to the capitalist world. But that's not true. Yes only women can have babies but that doesn't mean they need to be unpaid domestic slaves for the rest of their lives and be socially coerced into a sexual relationship with a waged man simply to be able to survive.

Obviously, and thankfully a lot of this has started to break down, but the legacy remains. But it can be changed, humans don't have to live like this, humans don't even have to spend their entire lives working given modern technology we could all have our needs met. We could all be taking breaks from work to have children (if physically female), or look after kids, or learn a new skill or go on a trip round the world or just spend time pottering in the garden without it having a detrimental effect on our income and quality of life. This was the world many radical feminists first envisaged and it's one worth fighting for imo.

Well if it's all down to gender why do transwomen still continue to rape and assault women at the same rate as other males?

@334bu

Well if it's all down to gender why do transwomen still continue to rape and assault women at the same rate as other males?

There's no evidence they do as well you know. But this thread seems to be turning into the usual onslaught of anti-trans propaganda from the same handful of posters that dominate any discussion about gender and feminism on mumsnet so I'll bow out now. Shame, it could have been an interesting discussion.

At the end of the day you can identify as what you like, but when it comes time to wipe arses and clean stuff up, everyone somehow knows who the women are. That has bugger all to do with what you wear or what pronouns you use.

There's no evidence they do as well you know. But this thread seems to be turning into the usual onslaught of anti-trans propaganda...

What else?

There is no evidence that transwomen have make pattern offending ? Although transwomen are disproportionately represented in the prison community for sexual offences we must remember that thus is just because the judiciary is biased

There's no evidence they do as well you know. But this thread seems to be turning into the usual onslaught of anti-trans propaganda from the same handful of posters that dominate any discussion about gender and feminism on mumsnet so I'll bow out now. Shame, it could have been an interesting discussion.

As well you know all evidence shows similar patterns in criminality between men and Transwomen. Transwomen are just as likely to be sex offenders as any other male person. Unless you have new evidence that shows otherwise?

fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

Male and female patterns of offending remain the same regardless of gender.

For anyone still confused by the sometimes-deliberate conflation of sex and gender:

Male = descriptor of the sex capable or potentially capable of producing small mobile gametes

Female = descriptor of the sex capable or potentially capable of producing large immobile gametes

Woman = noun identifying an adult human female (as opposed to a juvenile human female, which would be a girl)

Man = noun identifying an adult human male (as opposed to a juvenile human male, which would be a boy)

Gender = term for regressive sex role stereotypes which attach certain traits, behaviours or preferences to one sex or the other. The relevant descriptors here for someone who chooses to present according to one set of stereotypes or the other is not male, female, man or woman but masculine and feminine. You can be a feminine-presenting man but that does not make you either female or a woman.

To be "gender critical" means rejecting sex stereotypical roles and advocating that men and women (and boys and girls) can wear whatever they want, do whichever job they want, play with whatever toys they want etc, and that none of those choices have any bearing on one's sex, which is immutable. Gender critical feminists reject those stereotypes while acknowledging that the basis of women's oppression as a class is because of their biological sex and particularly their reproductive function.

Gender =/= sex.

I'd just like to point out that certain individuals like to leave as soon as statistics and facts are called for, as they know they are readily available and contradict their arguments.

here is no evidence that transwomen have male pattern offending ?

That is untrue as you well know.

@TheBuffster

fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

Male and female patterns of offending remain the same regardless of gender.

Anti-trans website is anti-trans shocker.

I can guess what it says without looking. The same old study thats always trotted out that didn't do any proper matching with the control group and is based on just 14 crimes and 50 year old data in some cases. And a big shock horror that trans people are over represented in prisons, just like LGB people.

Just one trans women who identifies as trans and did so at the time of the offence has been found guilty of rape in the UK in the last 2 years - thousands of men have been found guilty of rape in that period. Awaits a stream of posts claiming that this is because it's all secret and no-one knows what a women is anymore and the media wouldn't report a trans rapist, and the police lie despite the fact thousands of you spend half your lives scouring the world's press searching for trans criminals and you seem to find every single one and never shut up about them.

But this is getting old, and boring, and I'm off.

Are you really off this time @jj1968 ?

Can you find any evidence that transition affects the offence rates?

Yea yea we know all the prison statistics and scientific studies are crap Moreover, any transwomen convicted of whatever wasn't either a real transwomen or the crime they committed wasn't in the exact scenario you created. Transwomen do rape women and unless you have evidence to show that transwomen are less likely than any other male to be violent towards women then this discussion is done. Males are dangerous to women . Transwomen are male. Not all men and Transwomen are dangerous but those who are are just as likely to be transwomen than any other group of males.

@DeaconBoo

Is there any concept of gender that isn't otherwise described by "masculine" or "feminine " or are we essentially talking about the same thing when we use those words?

Can anyone answer this?

Anyone... Beuller....?

I don't know whether silence on this means 'yes' or 'no'. With no further information forthcoming, I'll assume gender means as per the wikipedia definition "Gender is the categorization of people with characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, femininity and masculinity". Happy to be corrected.
It's impossible to talk about gender if we don't even know what it is, let alone to legislate for it.

Somehow all threads end up talking about toilets or offending patterns. There's more to discuss than that, the concept is interesting and clearly is important to many lives but that doesn't mean biological sex should be chucked out.