..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

[ConcernedMum100]

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

*That sounds good. TW could prove they were 'living as women' by constantly putting the interests and wellbeing of others before that of themselves.

Two years of that, and we could see if they really want to be women.*

I give it two months.

I honestly think I had it better back in the 90s. At least the Misogyny was upfront and honest, then!

Men don’t get to dictate which women’s rights issues feminism focuses on.

To focus on women’s rights issues we first need to be clear about what the word woman means.

Plus if you weren’t so bloody centred on yourself you’d be aware women address these things all the fucking time.

@ArabellaScott

Gosh some people are very keen to gishgallop about ANYTHING other than Stonewall in schools?

EXACTLY that.

@jj1968

You're willing for there to be even one incident of women and children to be put at harm, have a lifetime of consequences from that, just so gender can trump sex? What about the millions of women who are put at more risk because you're willing not to let them have the same safety and dignity they had before people demanded they share with male-born people?

I've just posted evidence that trans women are around 30 times more likely to be sexually assaulted then men in men's prisons. That's how trans women are treated in male only spaces. That's why trans women shouldn't be forced to use them.

Why is that?

Because people would assume that being ex men they would still be able to put up a fight better than a woman?

Secondly, do male inmates pick them for sex because they might be different and therefore a new excitement?

I have never seen the private parts of a male to female transgender post op or vice versa.
Seriously, I would like to see one out of curiosity.
I've seen male/female transexuals on the porn sites are gorgeous.

I'd take one home for the night!

I do not gaf about saving the world from climate change if I’m only saving it for men.

Just a reminder that one of the founders of Stonewall has called it out for its 'extreme' positions.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stonewall-pioneer-criticises-its-transgender-extremism-pwc696ml5

If men, identifying as women, weren't attempting to take away my hard fought for single sex rights and spaces rather than sort out their own spaces and issues with other men, I wouldn't be having to expend energy on trans mysogeny.

Energy which I'd rather be using to campaign on climate change!

Again, men doing stuff that women have to clean up after, or fight against. What a surprise.

Engaging brings in the sunlight for lurkers still undecided.

It shows up trans ideology and trans activists for what they are.

Readers can’t cling to the image of the nice quiet tw just discreetly getting on with her life, using women’s facilities without imposing on us, once they see what tw idea of living as a woman is through the male entitlement and misogyny shown here.

@Catmaiden

I guess at least it highlights the utter nonsense TRAs use to confuse, obfuscate and deflect from the real issues!

Agree - it’s all useful stuff. Jj has worked hard tonight.

Lots of discussion and facts coming out so readers can form their own opinions on all aspects - this is how it all started - women realised what was going on and wanted a conversation to talk about the obvious conflict we were seeing and Stonewall responded with #nodebate.

Open conversation - we can’t move forward without it.

And non-sequitur - absolutely!

And if trans women (natal born men, XY) are having problems with their treatment by men, isn't that an issue with the way men behave. And it's the MEN who need to react /respond /accomodate/behave better.

Not women (the cunty sort, with XX chromosomes) Women are not support humans for Men (unless they chose to be)

Women are not support humans for Men (unless they chose to be)

A lot of them do. And that's fine, but it doesn't make them feminists.

@jj1968

If the year in your username indicates your vintage, you might remember the 80’s? A whole decade of ‘gender benders’ expanding the bandwidth of the societal constraints on their sex - make up and mad outfits a go-go. Boy George, Marilyn, Phil Oakey, Jon Pleased-Wimmin, Jimi Somerville, Annie Lennox, Neneh Cherry there were loads of them. We were on a roll - freedom was on the cards.

Oh I do remember the 80s. Queer bashing as a national sport, women routinely sexually assaulted in the workplace as the norm, vile criminals like Saville operating in plain sight, page 3 clippings on workplace walls, lurid right wing attacks on perverts and gender benders in the right wing press, a deadly plague largely ignored whilst thousands died, women with kids still shamed for going to work, prime time comedy shows which mostly involved middle aged men chasing round women in lingerie half their age, scantily clad dancers on TV shows 'for the dads', shock horror that a woman might get a job as an airline pilot or even bus driver, race riots, ethnic minority run shops boarded up and daubed with swastikas and far right slogans, savage attacks on single mothers and the economic destruction of entire working class communities - yeah the 80s, what a barrel of laughs.

You mean you took all that notice and did nothing to change it?

Well. I wouldn't put that on your CV.

Women are not support humans for Men (unless they chose to be)

A lot of them do. And that's fine, but it doesn't make them feminists

True, that. I was just being inclusive.

I am a feminist, and not a support human to anyone (apart from my children, when they were too small to support themselves)

There are some tw who might mange two years living as a woman who puts other women first, defers to their needs, prioritises other women first.

Yardley works out an obvious example. He also recognises this doesn’t make him a woman or give him entitlement to women’s spaces.

So if some tw are more than capable of this, it begs the question about why so many don’t. What motivations must they have for claiming to be a woman while displaying all the typical traits of male socialisation, including their hatred of women dripping from every word?

The sun shines straight on how sinister and dangerous their motives must be.

I once got told that I was prioritising wrongly, and should have devoted my efforts to stopping Brett Kavaunagh being nominated to the US Supreme Court, instead of arguing about women's spaces. Im an ordinary woman in the U.K. It's no more in my power to influence international judge selections than it is to stop climate change or dictate the requirements to get a GRC.

For anyone concerned about Stonewall misinterpreting the Equality Act and perhaps advising local authorities or schools badly, this might be interesting:

twitter.com/hashtag/DontSubmitToStonewall?src=hashtag_click

details the risks for any bodies following Stonewall's policies instead of the official guidance/laws.

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/

Is there a non Twitter source by any chance?

Second link, IWill!

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/

Ty. I wasn’t sure if that included the same info, so ty for clarifying.

You wouldn't be expected to share a cell, its against prison policy for trans women to either share cells or showers with non trans women.

Just to go back a bit... I’m not sure of the situation in England and Wales, but this is definitely not true of Scotland.

Alex Stewart/Alan Baker, convicted murderer, is indeed in the showers at the same time as the women inmates at Greenock Prison.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-murderer-crowned-prisons-miss-12022026

And who would have imagined that a male person who was capable of stabbing another male person to death in cold blood would also take advantage of ludicrous self ID rules to not only be housed in a women’s prison but also to take part in and win the “Miss Fitness” competition? With prizes!

Here’s more about Alex/Alan, and Sophie/Daniel, also male, also a murderer, also in a women’s facility:

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/alex-stewart-and-sophie-eastwood

And re the smaller number of men’s prisons, and the impact of that on trans prisoners, here’s what Keep Prisons Single Sex has to say about women in prison:

There are important social differences between female and male prisoners with female prisoners far more likely to be primary carers of young children than male prisoners. The comparatively small number of women who are imprisoned means that there is only a small number of female prisons. The small number of prisons means that women are more likely to be imprisoned further away from their home than men. This frequently has a negative impact on family relationships and relationships with their children, particularly where women are the primary carers for their children. By contrast, men’s home lives outside prison usually continue during their absence in prison.

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/women-in-prison

So the situation is actually comparable to the reality of many women - but suddenly it’s “but it’s not ok to get treated less favourably than other males”! Biologically male trans prisoners actually have more options than women: they could campaign for a separate trans wing on all male prisons, then they’d be safe and possibly closer to home than in a women’s prison.

Anyway. Back to the point. Stonewall are campaigning for self ID in all circumstances. That’s literally their slogan: Acceptance without exception.

So that means convicted male sex offenders in women’s prisons (one in 50 male prisoners now identify as trans, and a sizeable proportion of those are sex offenders).

And any male teenager who claims to identify as a girl in the girls’ changing rooms and showers. After school swimming lessons for example.

So even if it’s the boy in Y9 or 10 who is known for harassing the girls, and who may already be looking for loopholes to exploit to further harass them, Stonewall say that if he one day says he now identifies as a girl, that’s it, he is a girl. And any girl who has a problem with that is a transphobic bigot who needs reeducating, possibly excluding.

There was a poster on FWR who talked about exactly that happening at her DD’s school. And another who posted about very unwelcome experiences in the showers. But hey. Acceptance without exception, remember?

That’s Stonewall for you.

Alex Stewart/Alan Baker, convicted murderer, is indeed in the showers at the same time as the women inmates at Greenock Prison.

Yes Talking, and what made me rage was the way it was described by a male prison officer "some of the women found it awkward". How to be dismissive of a truly degrading and humiliating instance of sexual harassment of women.

Actually it probably qualifies as sexual assault, outside of the context of prison.

As in it is still sexual assault in real terms but possibly not legally.