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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
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17
IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 22:58

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OldCrone · 06/02/2021 22:59

@jj1968

The 'living as a woman' part of obtaining a GRC seemed to be based on changing one's name to a female one and showing utility bills for two years with the new female name.

How else does a male person 'live as a woman'?

Back in the days of the so called 'real life test' when trans people were forced to 'live in' their aquired gender for two years before being able to access any treatment it meant dressing in clothes designed for women and using women's spaces. If you read some of the accounts of trans women who went through that process and had clinicians commenting on their make up techniques or questioning why they were wearing trouers and not a skirt you might understand why trans people fought so hard against it. A lot of this shit is shit you did to us and you are now blaming us for it.

We did that to you? I don't think so. It was presumably some sort of directive from the government, not feminists.

And seeing as that is now in the past, how does a male person now live as a woman? (Other than changing name and title on their utility bills)

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 22:59

A lot of this shit is shit you did to us and you are now blaming us for it.

Women didn't do shit to you. No, wearing a skirt isn't anything to do with being a woman, but neither is anything else a male-born person can do either will give them the true female experience in this life. So in that sense, yes it is absolutely meaningless. Doesnt mean that males should instantly be recognised as women on their say so though.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 22:59

A lot of this shit is shit you did to us and you are now blaming us for it.

Firstly, you're not "us" in terms of you've not applied for a GRC, have you, jj.

Secondly, we, as in women on FWR, did fuck all. This isn't anything to do with us. We just don't want males in female spaces.

ArabellaScott · 06/02/2021 23:03

Katie Dolatowski was placed in a woman's refuge while awaiting trial, too. Directly placing vulnerable women at risk.

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/832849/warning-as-transgender-sex-offender-placed-in-womens-hostel/

MaudTheInvincible · 06/02/2021 23:06

@Wotapolava

Because only kids who attend schools and parents should see certain things? Like some aspects of it already require sign in because of children's photos etc...
Do you want to see in the crappers too?
As a parent I dont look at other school websites neither apart from my child's so why should anyone who doesn't have a child at that school?
Would you stand outside a jobcentre, tax office, GP surgery or hospital?

Seems legit Smile

gardenbird48 · 06/02/2021 23:06

I don't think a solution whereby trans women are treated worse than other prisoners simply because they are trans is an acceptable solution.

Clarify why they should be treated more favourably than other male prisoners please?

Female prisons are generally lower security and often have mother and baby units. The general facilities, offender rehabilitation programmes etc are not set up for male people. It is categorically not suitable for any male people to be housed in the women’s estate especially sex offenders being anywhere near the mother and baby unit.

Prisons that do this are setting themselves up for a sex discrimination case where a male prisoner applies to be housed in the female estate and is rejected because he hasn’t said the magic words.

OldCrone · 06/02/2021 23:06

A lot of this shit is shit you did to us and you are now blaming us for it.

The 'you' here is women (even though it's not women who wrote the GRA). The 'us' here is 'transwomen'.

Yet according to jj, 'transwomen are women'. But women are witches who make 'transwomen' do all sorts of terrible things so that they can be recognised as women (even though they hate women).

jj, why do you want to be a woman, since you hate us so much?

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 23:08

@IWillSqueakAgain

What a victim complex jj. Shit we did to you. All women’s fault as usual.

You are the class with all the power. Take some bloody responsibility for what you do.

Shit that a transphobic and highly gendered society did to us, not women exclusively.
CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 23:11

A lot of this shit is shit you did to us and you are now blaming us for it.

Categorically not.

I've never believed anyone could change sex, so even if I'd at some point in the distant past been In Charge Of How Transwomen Do Anything, which clearly I wasn't, I'd have no more set that as a bar than I'd have set a 100m hurdle in heels whilst holding a tray of girly cocktails.

Neither proves a change of sex, as that's not possible, & neither is needed for people who aren't comfortable with the stereotypes frequently associated with their sex & have a preference for opposite sex stereotypes. They are welcome to crack on.

It's simply not 'shit' feminists did to you. We aren't even playing the game, much less setting the rules.

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 23:11

Shit that a transphobic and highly gendered society did to us, not women exclusively.

Sorry, highly gendered society? Without a gendered society there wouldn't be a gender issue, and this whole argument about accepting gender over sex wouldn't exist. You cannot have it both ways.

OldCrone · 06/02/2021 23:12

Back in the days of the so called 'real life test' when trans people were forced to 'live in' their aquired gender for two years before being able to access any treatment it meant dressing in clothes designed for women and using women's spaces. If you read some of the accounts of trans women who went through that process and had clinicians commenting on their make up techniques or questioning why they were wearing trouers and not a skirt you might understand why trans people fought so hard against it.

One more reply to this. This idea wasn't devised by women. It was proposed by sexist men who thought that men who wanted to be women should 'dress like' women and use women's toilets etc. as part of the 'real life test'. They didn't consult women about this. If they had they would have found that women weren't happy with being used as a way of validating males who thought they were women.

Stop blaming us for things that were done by men. Take it up with the men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 23:14

Shit that a transphobic and highly gendered society did to us, not women exclusively.

Yes, it's a walk in the park for women in the highly gendered society. We really should be thinking of ways to make it easier for a group of males.

OldCrone · 06/02/2021 23:15

Shit that a transphobic and highly gendered society did to us, not women exclusively.

Some women, feminists particularly, are fighting against society being highly gendered. If 'gender' disappeared there would be no need for anyone to be transgender. That would be the ideal. But you obviously want a gendered society so that you can be transgender.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 23:15

If I was in charge, I'd certainly be making some changes. But luckily for many, I'm not.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 23:16

@CorvusPurpureus

A lot of this shit is shit you did to us and you are now blaming us for it.

Categorically not.

I've never believed anyone could change sex, so even if I'd at some point in the distant past been In Charge Of How Transwomen Do Anything, which clearly I wasn't, I'd have no more set that as a bar than I'd have set a 100m hurdle in heels whilst holding a tray of girly cocktails.

Neither proves a change of sex, as that's not possible, & neither is needed for people who aren't comfortable with the stereotypes frequently associated with their sex & have a preference for opposite sex stereotypes. They are welcome to crack on.

It's simply not 'shit' feminists did to you. We aren't even playing the game, much less setting the rules.

Did I say feminists? This is like when women complain about patriarchy and men go well its not my fault, I didn't invent the patriarchy. It's funny how often I've seen gender critical activists try shut down trans women using the exact same argument sexist men use to shut down women - we're making it up, making a fuss over nothing, we were asking for it, we should stop complaining and work towards the gender revolution, we're too sensitive, it was just a joke etc etc.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 23:18

Did I say feminists?

You said "you did this, and now you're blaming us for it" in an argument with feminists.

Stop being so disingenuous.

OldCrone · 06/02/2021 23:19

Did I say feminists?

Well, who did you mean? Most people here are women, so you appeared to be aiming that at women. If you meant men you should have said so. But you're probably in the wrong place for that. You should try throwing that shit at men on a male-dominated forum instead. Men did this, not women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 23:20

You quoted OldCrone, a feminist, in the post you posted that bizarre rant in.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 23:21

@OldCrone

Shit that a transphobic and highly gendered society did to us, not women exclusively.

Some women, feminists particularly, are fighting against society being highly gendered. If 'gender' disappeared there would be no need for anyone to be transgender. That would be the ideal. But you obviously want a gendered society so that you can be transgender.

Some women, feminists particularly, are fighting against society being highly gendered.

Some are, mostly trans inclusive feminists in my experience. When I see the day that gender critical activists take on the diet industry, the cosmetic surgery industry, the fashion industry, or even the sex industry with the zeal they have taken to attacking trans people I might change my mind.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 23:22

Some are, mostly trans inclusive feminists in my experience.

They really aren't.

IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 23:22

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 23:23

Who cares whether you change your mind or not? I don't consider your view particularly central to this conversation. Or that you are qualified to pronounce on feminism.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 23:24

@OldCrone

Did I say feminists?

Well, who did you mean? Most people here are women, so you appeared to be aiming that at women. If you meant men you should have said so. But you're probably in the wrong place for that. You should try throwing that shit at men on a male-dominated forum instead. Men did this, not women.

I meant people who aren't trans who I could describe very easily if normal mainstream academic terms were permitted on here. And there were female MPs and clinicians in 2004, just because women are oppressed it doesn't mean they can't also be racist, transphobic or homophobic and some are.
CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 23:24

My female socialisation is now kicking in, JJ, & I think you're quite upset at the wrong target - apparently you're cross at the patriarchy so you're shouting at women on the internet? - & should maybe call it a night.

The sunlight is great, but you definitely sound a bit over wrought.

(I'm not completely being a passive aggressive twat here btw - you ARE ranting & making little sense, but also it's late etc etc).