..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

[ConcernedMum100]

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

I've just posted evidence that trans women are around 30 times more likely to be sexually assaulted then men in men's prisons. That's how trans women are treated in male only spaces. That's why trans women shouldn't be forced to use them.

Then they should be housed away from the men. That does not mean put them in with the women.

I've just posted evidence that trans women are around 30 times more likely to be sexually assaulted then men in men's prisons. That's how trans women are treated in male only spaces. That's why trans women shouldn't be forced to use them

Then time they sorted out the men in men's prisons then. Cos womens prisons are womens prisons not " anyone who might not be safe in mens prisons " why aren't you trying to campaign for conditions in men's prisons to be made safer.

I'm not sure banning trans women from women's toilets would have prevented those attacks. Dolotowski is clearly very dangerous and very disturbed, I doubt she would have been deterred by a sign saying women born women only on the door.

The report said that Dolotowski was with a social worker who allowed the sex offender to go into the women’s toilets either while a little girl was in there in her own or allowed the little girl to go in there without warning her. The father waited outside because he didn’t know that D was in there with a knife assaulting his daughter.

My youngest daughter is 12 jj - imagining what happened to that little girl is awful. Realising that the Scottish government is making powerful efforts to make it easier for the next Katie Dolotowski makes me sick.

We have heard personal testimony from mothers on here, having experienced aggressive male people in the women’s toilets, a young girl and her mother were flashed at by a male who felt that by wearing a skirt he was entitled to be in their space.

Please provide a similar level of evidence that male bodied transgender people are at any more risk of violence in the correct facilities for their sex (male btw) than other vulnerable male groups such as teenagers (attacked at an enormous rate) or small camp men.

I have asked this question quite a few times now and have been provided with precisely zero evidence (apart from that self selected survey from 6 years ago in America which bears no resemblance to uk today).

Which aspects of being a woman do you identify with? Empathy isn’t one of them.

Who wants to keep the 'living as a woman' trope?

Most GC feminists agree it's utterly meaningless because there is no such thing.

Seriously, take that up with your fellow genderists - it's not a feminist position.

This. There is no such thing as a male "living as a woman". It isn't possible. They aren't women, and never will be.

But us women and girls who have much weaker bodies than tw can be expected to put up with males in our spaces?

If tw are at such risk, and clearly plenty tw say this is bs- Yardley says he’s always been totally safe using men’s facilities- it’s simply not women’s problem to fix. Go sort out seperate sections of male prisions for vulnerable men like tw, or use the many seperate toilets that already exist. 51% of the population don’t have to accept being at greater risk when we are the vulnerable group, just to appease the tiny % of tw out there, who have male strength and all the privilege and power that comes with belonging to the class of males.

@Whatwouldscullydo

A rape a day at schools not significant enough to keep kids segregated when they are at their most vulnerable? Ie half dressed ?

Mixing sexes wouldn't increase that figure even more?

Has it increased that figure should be the question, it's happened.

All of the research and expert opinion on this says no. It has been discussed to death in the states. You may find that surprising but I don't. Assaults in toilets are thankfully very rare but sadly when they happen their has been no requirement for the man to pretend to be trans to get in.

Here's an interesting report from mediamatters discussing the impact of trans inclusive spaces: www.mediamatters.org/fox-nation/debunking-big-myth-about-transgender-inclusive-bathrooms

@jj1968

I'm always quite bemused by the 'living as a woman' trope, too

The living as a woman trope is ridiculous and comes from the requirement to live in your aquired gender for two years in order to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate. You know the requirement trans people were hoping to get rid of but you all wanted to keep.

The 'living as a woman' part of obtaining a GRC seemed to be based on changing one's name to a female one and showing utility bills for two years with the new female name.

How else does a male person 'live as a woman'?

Assaults in toilets are thankfully very rare but sadly when they happen their has been no requirement for the man to pretend to be trans to get in.

And yet you want to make it even easier for them by giving the absolute right to be there.

@jj1968

You're willing for there to be even one incident of women and children to be put at harm, have a lifetime of consequences from that, just so gender can trump sex? What about the millions of women who are put at more risk because you're willing not to let them have the same safety and dignity they had before people demanded they share with male-born people?

I've just posted evidence that trans women are around 30 times more likely to be sexually assaulted then men in men's prisons. That's how trans women are treated in male only spaces. That's why trans women shouldn't be forced to use them.

So are you now arguing for transwomen-only spaces?

This isn't just about rape. The bar for female lives, comfort and dignity is higher than "not being raped". Women need female only spaces for a variety of important reasons. Safety is a major one, but so is freedom from sexual harassment.

Brum- off topic but that’s not what I think therefore I am means.

It’s decartes arguement to prove we exist. He basically means the fact he is wondering if we exist proves we exist because if we didn’t exist we wouldn’t be wondering if our existence was real.

It doesn’t mean ‘I think I’m a woman therefor I am’ it means I am real, I’m here, because I can think. There’s no way that can be used to try and identify something that doesn’t exist though (being a woman if your not one).

And yet you want to make it even easier for them by giving the absolute right to be there?

Does anyone remember the news story about the body of a man they found in a vent in the womens toilet and all the articles claimed to have no idea what he was doing there....I dont think it was uk, but uts all the same ridiculous claims that no one can really put 2 and 2 together

This statement is wrong in several ways: It's not a religous based right because it's not dependent on religion. Any organisation could legally discriminate against gays and lesbians if they could show it was a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim - they don't have to be religious

Religious organisations have specific exceptions that permit them to directly discriminate against LGB people without having to show that it's a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. It is a religious based right.

No non-religious organisations can use that exception. They do have to be religious.

Neither religious or non-religious organisations are permitted to directly discriminate against LGB people on the grounds of proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. Either type of organisation could potentially use these grounds as a defence for indirect discrimination.

@CorvusPurpureus

I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that transwomen are likely to be at risk from other males in jail.

A separate wing/space seems like the best solution, without involving female prisoners.

It's not the best solution though is it because there aren;t enough trans prisoners to justify creating more than a couple of them and that would mean trans women placed in prison would likely be placed miles away from friends and family, including possibly their kids if they have them, making visiting very difficult. Things like that are a big deal to prisoners, whose friends and family often don't have much money and so can't travel regualrly to the other end of the country. I don't think a solution whereby trans women are treated worse than other prisoners simply because they are trans is an acceptable solution.

@MrsBrunch

Assaults in toilets are thankfully very rare but sadly when they happen their has been no requirement for the man to pretend to be trans to get in.

And yet you want to make it even easier for them by giving the absolute right to be there.

Having no toilet roll probably occurs more frequently.

The germ factor though...

91% of 1139 people agreeing that Stonewall should not be involved in schools.

Surely the only true ‘living as a woman’ trope would be in tw shut up and put other women first automatically.

That’s what women do continually, world over. Put everyone else’s needs ahead of our own. Prioritise others safety before our own. Be quiet about our feelings incase we burden others.

If tw truly had some innate female essence this is the behaviour they’d display while ‘living as a woman’.

It’s decartes arguement to prove we exist. He basically means the fact he is wondering if we exist proves we exist because if we didn’t exist we wouldn’t be wondering if our existence was real.

It doesn’t mean ‘I think I’m a woman therefor I am’ it means I am real, I’m here, because I can think. There’s no way that can be used to try and identify something that doesn’t exist though (being a woman if your not one).

I wasn't using a philosophical phrase, I was merely saying that the difference in 'demanding' that people have to wait 2 years before getting gender recognition is that it makes it more difficult for one to say 'I think I am a woman, therefore treat me as such and give me access to x, y, z spaces with no question regardless of the fact that I'm still a big bloke called Dave who has made zero attempt at 'womaning' by social standards'. That seemed a bit wordy though, and I really cba to get into semantics. Or philosophy. Or anymore derailing of this thread.

Stonewall is bad for kids, bad education, bad ideology, very bad safeguarding. The end, goodnight.

The 'living as a woman' part of obtaining a GRC seemed to be based on changing one's name to a female one and showing utility bills for two years with the new female name.

How else does a male person 'live as a woman'?

Back in the days of the so called 'real life test' when trans people were forced to 'live in' their aquired gender for two years before being able to access any treatment it meant dressing in clothes designed for women and using women's spaces. If you read some of the accounts of trans women who went through that process and had clinicians commenting on their make up techniques or questioning why they were wearing trouers and not a skirt you might understand why trans people fought so hard against it. A lot of this shit is shit you did to us and you are now blaming us for it.

I don't think a solution whereby trans women are treated worse than other prisoners simply because they are trans is an acceptable solution.

I don't think a solution whereby women are put at risk of being raped by other prisoners is an acceptable solution.

Perhaps you should be campaigning for male prisons to be safer for vulnerable males.

Women prisoners should not be used as validation props for male prisoners who want to be women.

Neither religious or non-religious organisations are permitted to directly discriminate against LGB people on the grounds of proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. Either type of organisation could potentially use these grounds as a defence for indirect discrimination.

If it can be demonstrated that it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim then discrimination can legally occur across every protected strand of the GRA, the proportionate/legitimate clause doesn't just apply to sex.

sorry strand of the Equality Act not GRA

@IWillSqueakAgain

Surely the only true ‘living as a woman’ trope would be in tw shut up and put other women first automatically.

That’s what women do continually, world over. Put everyone else’s needs ahead of our own. Prioritise others safety before our own. Be quiet about our feelings incase we burden others.

If tw truly had some innate female essence this is the behaviour they’d display while ‘living as a woman’.

That sounds good. TW could prove they were 'living as women' by constantly putting the interests and wellbeing of others before that of themselves.

Two years of that, and we could see if they really want to be women.

Here's another reason why Stonewall are a problem. They have their fingers in an awful lot of pies, and a huge and unwarranted amount of influence. Story in the thread as to why a black lesbian lawyer is suing them:

Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall