To remove dd from RS

[MossandRoy]

The lack of balance is annoying. There is an assumption that there is a god. There is an assumption that everyone believes in that god. I can remove her. Has anyone done this successfully? I'm concerned she'll be given a hard time...

@caligulascatharsis

I went to a non-religious secondary school and was repeatedly told off and sent out of RE for expressing atheist views/questioning Christianity. I genuinely wasn't being a knobhead teenager, it was just made clear that there was absolutely no room for debate or deviation from 'god is real'. This was in the early 2000's too, not even that long ago.

I asked to be excused from singing hymns as an atheist, after seeing that my Muslim and Jehovah's Witness peers were excused, and was swiftly told to shut up and get to assembly 😄 I don't think that atheism holds much respect in terms of a persons identity.

Speaking as an atheist and someone who works in a school, a teens version of atheism and therefore trying to get out of assembly often comes across as a disrespect to other religions and manipulative defiance.

I just asked my DS, who goes to a non religious primary school, if he has to pray and sing hymns - he does. He said 'we have to pray about thanking god for food and family and the earth we have'. This pisses me right off. It's indoctrination, or having DS singled out from all of his peers by kicking up a stink and telling the school to exclude him from all assemblies (when they're back on). I've told him to give thanks to science instead.

@MossandRoy

Thanks for responding all. Not a faith school, no. She's Yr 7. Been annoyed at rs from about Yr 2. This morning's lesson particularly annoyed her. It was about a famous religious person who is idolised, but there was no balance to say that this person was also very unkind to those who didn't hold the same views, would only help 'believers'. We had a chat about it all and that prompted the conversation (again) about taking her out of the lessons. She has very much already decided for herself. 'You don't need a god to be a good person'

I can't disagree.

Mother Theresa?

If so, I'm amazed schools are still using her as a shining example of religious 'qualities'!

Speaking as an atheist and someone who works in a school, a teens version of atheism and therefore trying to get out of assembly often comes across as a disrespect to other religions and manipulative defiance.

And this is just what I mean by atheism not being respected. Why is it 'trying to get out of assembly' and 'manipulative defiance' when its atheism that is a person's belief? Why would that not be true of any other belief? Why should an atheist be forced to chant about god and Jesus when it's completely against their beliefs?

Oh, and 'disrespectful' too? What's respectful about forcing an atheist to partake in Christian prayer?

@MossandRoy I haven't read the thread but DD voted with her feet when RS was made compulsory as a GCSE subject in Y8. The school were a bit bemused and tried to talk her out of it, but they let her and she hasn't had a hard time.

Younger DS rather enjoys finding out what other people believe, so he will probably carry on with it. (Neither did RS when very young in primary when we didn't think they'd be able to think critically about it, but they did it in KS2.)

I think it would be a mistake to take her out. No teacher should be proselytising - the curriculum, if you’re in the uk, is on all religions and from what once seen my daughter cover, is very good. My daughter thinks some of the stuff is ridiculous but can also see the sense in some of it and the shared beliefs between religions etc... it really can open their eyes and help them understand why other people worship in the way they do. However, you still have a lot of influence. If you believe something is wrong, you can put her right. You also need to make sure you are not being too dogmatic and are allowing her to make a decision of her own, giving her all the information as you see it, but letting her know she can choose her own view. Taking her out of lessons, I believe, wouldn’t be doing that. She should be very free to express her views in class, at appropriate times and respectfully. If the teacher is not being balanced it needs looking at but I wouldn’t take her out.

She doesn't agree with the teacher, and this is prompting debate and further investigation at home? Sounds like the teacher is doing their job. Would you rather your DD only gets taught about things she agrees with and doesn't learn to probe or challenge the views put before her?

RE a compulsory GCSE at my children’s school

Absolutely do it, exercise your right to withdraw.

I did this with my son and he spent the time doing his homework or revising and it was far better spent.

My main issue was pushy evangelical groups being given access to classes and the teachers lazily allowing them free rein with little supervision.

He was the envy of his class.

The KS3 curriculum for RE is very broad, and should include elements of philosophy and ethics too. Unless you're in a faith school there should be no 'Bible thumping', and diverse aspects of many religions - Christianity, Islam and Sikhism are taught in my school in y7 with varying approaches to engage the students to consider what other people think and believe.

The bottom line in every religion is basically be nice to other people, that's a useful lesson for most people in my book.

Oh, and yes, she will be that kid

@caligulascatharsis

Speaking as an atheist and someone who works in a school, a teens version of atheism and therefore trying to get out of assembly often comes across as a disrespect to other religions and manipulative defiance.

And this is just what I mean by atheism not being respected. Why is it 'trying to get out of assembly' and 'manipulative defiance' when its atheism that is a person's belief? Why would that not be true of any other belief? Why should an atheist be forced to chant about god and Jesus when it's completely against their beliefs?

Because , on the whole, and I say this again as an atheist, IME I've seen many a teen simply saying I don't believe in it so I'm not going.

Comparing that to a Muslim who can't attend is disrespectful.

I'm sure there are people who have fully formed atheists beliefs in their teens, but for every one there is a teen who is at it.

These non-faith schools that still sing hymns and do Christian prayers - are they in the uk? I thought that wasn’t allowed anymore. But I would not worry about it - we did all that in primary and secondary 35 years ago and almost no one I went to school with is a Christians the Muslims are still Muslim, the Hindus still Hindu. No one was brainwashed or anything. Most will just switch off, even if their mouths are mumbling the words.

@Idontbelieveit12

RE a compulsory GCSE at my children’s school

From the gov.uk website:

"Parents have the right to withdraw their children from religious education and/or collective worship.

From age 16, pupils can choose for themselves to opt out of collective worship if they wish. However, they cannot opt out of receiving religious education without parental consent until they are 18."

Schools often enter kids for GCSE RE as it's easy to pass and adds points to the league tables.

By Yr7 she should understand that people believe all sorts of different things, including teachers. RS involves learning about different religions, ethics and some philosophy. If she has had problem with it since year 2, she must have had very bad luck with her teachers!

It's your choice but remember kids can be really passionate about things and do change too - both my DD's were fervent atheists, dd1 even went to a national primary school religion thing to represent those without religion! But first dd1 decided to be c of e, then dd2 years later has decided to be Catholic, go figure!

I think it's good for critical thinking to sit through the lessons and at gcse you can answer the questions from various religious perspectives or atheist

Maybe ask for their RS scheme of work to see what they have planned? It might give you a better overview and help your decision of when/whether to ask for a chat with the teacher before you go further.

@RootyT00t but it isn't disrespectful at all to believe that atheists should be treated equally to those who have religious beliefs. Please explain why you think that it disrespectful and manipulative for a teenager to not want to be forced to sing Christian hymns because they don't believe in god, but not disrespectful for a Muslim or Jehovah's Witness to not want to take part? And why you think it's disrespectful to compare the two? And why you assume that most teenagers who identify as atheists are either lying or aren't fully fledged atheists?

In our case absolutely not - RS we consider more essential than PE but mine went to a faith school that was totally inclusive. They went to a church where someone told them ‘this is the truth Jesus Christ died for you’ then a few months later they went to a Sikh temple and were told more about the religion but presented as fact - when she questioned it and asked ‘is this a story or fact’ they were told facts rock on another 6 months and off they went to a synagogue and told more ‘facts’ then a Hindu temple and a mosque - by the end of primary she’d ‘done’ most of the main religions and asked to talk about them all together and said how can they all be right? How can they all say their religion is right because of facts? Etc etc abs we had a very intense two weeks of discussion. DD is now 14 and her faith is open minded or no existent depending on who you ask but she knows the main religions. Her year 4 teacher refused to even question god as it was a c of e school and told them to pray about their worries as god will help. So 10 years later I have a very balanced daughter who is open minded and accepting of all religions. Bias or indoctrination can be removed by open discussion and I would rather this then radicalisation at an older age.

I was brought up by extremely atheist parents who thought Christians should be shot - it pushed me into it - evangelical church at 17 when I left home and they welcomed me with open arms abs I became a Christian - because it was taboo from my parents I explored it for 20 odd years before finding my own opinions

@MidgeRidge

These non-faith schools that still sing hymns and do Christian prayers - are they in the uk? I thought that wasn’t allowed anymore. But I would not worry about it - we did all that in primary and secondary 35 years ago and almost no one I went to school with is a Christians the Muslims are still Muslim, the Hindus still Hindu. No one was brainwashed or anything. Most will just switch off, even if their mouths are mumbling the words.

Yes, in the UK. I really don't think that it should be allowed. And I know that me, and the majority of my peers, would just get it over and done with like an irritating chore and that this is exactly what my DS and peers are doing now, but why should they?

Even dentists can appreciate the arts, all the more so if they have the cultural knowledge to have a greater insight into its meaning.

So a) people can appreciate the arts without a religious education and b) if they want to deepen their understanding they can take the equivalent of a first year uni introductory class or maybe read a book. No need to teach it at school after all. I’m glad we agree

Ps in science creationism is no longer allowed to be taught - as a possibility or a fact. It was removed as a possibility theory a number of years ago abs many science have had to be reprinted removing it. Possibilities are Big Bang theory etc but not creationism - like wise 97% of the population including the Arch of Cant believe that the theory of evolution abs fossil records are essentially fact and not theory anymore

@KeflavikAirport

No it shouldn’t. It’s illegal where I live. You want your kids to learn about religion, you can teach them the basics yourself in an afternoon.

The problem is when people DON'T teach them, or teach them to be biased towards other religions. Much better to have schools teach in a non biased way, exactly what other religions actually believe, rather than someone who is Anti-semitic, for example, being the only person who "teaches" you what Jewish people celebrate and believe in.

[quote caligulascatharsis]@RootyT00t but it isn't disrespectful at all to believe that atheists should be treated equally to those who have religious beliefs. Please explain why you think that it disrespectful and manipulative for a teenager to not want to be forced to sing Christian hymns because they don't believe in god, but not disrespectful for a Muslim or Jehovah's Witness to not want to take part? And why you think it's disrespectful to compare the two? And why you assume that most teenagers who identify as atheists are either lying or aren't fully fledged atheists? [/quote]
I don't believe atheists should be treated the same as those who have different religious beliefs, it's not comparable.

Re your last question - how do we separate the two?

@caligulascatharsis the same reason they now have to do PE. It's a legal requirement