To remove dd from RS

[MossandRoy]

The lack of balance is annoying. There is an assumption that there is a god. There is an assumption that everyone believes in that god. I can remove her. Has anyone done this successfully? I'm concerned she'll be given a hard time...

As for 'this is a Christian country' - not really, the UK like much of the West is increasingly secular. Fine to teach about religion. Not fine to teach actual religion, except in faith schools where people sign up for that. (I think they should be abolished)

The UK history, culture and some of the institutions is based loosely on Christian values though. I think it's fine to acknowledge that the UK was, historically, if not now, a Christian society. Even now, I would argue we are culturally Christian- plenty of people have their children Christened and insist on marrying in a Church despite not believing in any God (an argument in itself!) etc etc.

^Your dd is growing up in a predominantly Christian society. She can't remove herself from that. I'm presuming you don't reject Christmas/Easter and I think she will gain a lot from looking at it through a sociological perspective.
She obviously understands that people have different beliefs and not everyone believes in God but I think it will bode her well to stick with it. She will also miss out on learning about different religions and cultures.
What will pulling her out of lessons achieve?^

Christmas and Easter are cultural festivals as much as religious ones and need not have any religious element for a lot of people. You can remove yourself from organised religion in all aspects of your life, apart from school assemblies even in in non-denominational schools, which have to be of a "broadly Christian character", AFAIK.

Faith should not be taught as fact in RE lessons in an non-faith school though, end of story.

plenty of people have their children Christened and insist on marrying in a Church despite not believing in any God (an argument in itself!) etc etc

Most people don't actually now unless they are actively choosing the religious element. Or giving themselves the option of the best school in the area. I don't blame them- ridiculous system anyway.

Did you post about this in a local Facebook group this morning?!

Faith should not be taught as fact in RE lessons in an non-faith school though, end of story

Agree with this. Lessons should be "Christians believe " or "Muslims believe that " etc.

We live abroad, catholic country, lots of religious holidays. But option for kids not to do religion. Mine don’t.

About 40% of the population say they are Christian. Only 16% are members of any church congregation. The majority of the country are not Christians. These numbers will probably have fallen further when we get the 2021 census results.

My RE lessons actually made me less inclined to be religious - putting Christianity in context, finding out about the different gospel writers and their different agendas, why they might include certain elements of the story and not include others, and the many previous religions which had Christ-like elements, stories of resurrection etc, was all very interesting. And a good knowledge of Bible stories was very helpful as a foundation to studying history and literature. Plus of course a knowledge of the elements of the main religions is pretty useful in providing a basic understanding of the world.

If they are presenting it as fact and have continued to do so after you addressed it with them then yes I would remove her. I have opted my DD out of religion but it's a slightly different situation as it's a catholic school and is really is presented rammed down their throats as fact. She doesn't participate but still has to remain in the classroom she just gets on with other work. She inevitably picks up the prayers/ideas but I try to counter it at home with books.

I would talk to the teacher/school first as its not supposed to be taught like in the UK as far as I know. I don't let DD join in religious lessons but in my country its more like bible class than UK RS lessons so she skips the indoctrination stuff but joins in the rest.

Another point to consider is whether your DD might feel left out if she's pulled out, DD felt left out when she was the only one in her class not joining in.

@MossandRoy the more facts she knows, the more she will realise that any religion is utter nonsense (and deserves zero respect).

People have rights and deserve respect. Ideas don't.

Once a child studies all religions they have a much better position resist any stupidity from teachers, from other people and you can have a really cool discussions then at home and share your ideas.

It's definitely substandard RS if it is taught that way
(unless it's an RC school, but complaining that they have a Christian nature is a bit WTF else were you expecting, but even they teach about all main religions and ethics questions across all)

Taught properly, it's an important subject, especially in increasingly diverse communities, and there is no way I'd opt a DC out (communal worship being an entirely separate issue)

It’s a pretty easy GCSE subject and quite interesting. DS did quite a bit of ethics and human rights in his. He is and was entirely without religion but was interested in spirituality. He went on to do a degree in philosophy.

I wouldn’t remove her on the basis of your comments but might remind the school to keep it impartial and neutral.

I'd be sort of tempted to keep your daughter in the lesson but with your full backing to question (politely and respectfully) and raise discussion points. She sounds bright.

I didn’t know you were allowed to remove a child from RS.

[quote ZooKeeper19]@MossandRoy the more facts she knows, the more she will realise that any religion is utter nonsense (and deserves zero respect).

People have rights and deserve respect. Ideas don't.

Once a child studies all religions they have a much better position resist any stupidity from teachers, from other people and you can have a really cool discussions then at home and share your ideas.[/quote]
This kind of disrespect towards other people’s beliefs and faith makes my blood boil. You can’t dissociate the belief from the believer. It’s not “cool” to dismiss other people’s religious beliefs as “nonsense”, it’s intolerant at best.

I wouldn't bother taking her out, it sounds like she has her head screwed on anyway. She's not being indoctrinated by it all.

Plus in Year 7 it would be pretty noticeable if she was just missing from the class, and she'd probs have to spend a dull house sitting in another teacher's office.

You sound a bit precious

It was FOUL for me growing up. I have a catholic grandma, Christian parents who didn’t bother with church and am vehemently atheist myself.
After a total breakdown in one RE lesson caused by the total assumption we all believe in heaven, the morning after I lost my great grandma, I begged to be allowed out of those lessons. My parents refused as it was “good for me to experience other peoples religious views” and they had been in school and explained the issues, school said they would take it on board and from then on everything was prefaced with “some people believe”. Which was fine. Until year 9 when my grandad got his cancer diagnosis and his prognosis was bleak at best. My parents rang the school to let them know, I went back in the following Monday. We had an utter fruitcake of a teacher who insisted that heaven was real, hell was real and everyone who was atheist was going to hell. Cue breakdown number 2. My parents once again spoke to the school who said they’d sort it but every single RE lesson where heaven/hell or any other version of it (Valhalla etc) I was singled out as “The Atheist with the Grandfather who was doomed to hell/wherever” it was utterly horrific. But no amount of pleading would get my utter witch of a teacher to stop. And has given me the creeps about every RE teacher I have met since.

Kids in year 7 learning about life story of religious or historical figures and what they did (guessing, say, Mother Teresa or Mahatma Gandhi type people) will learn the basic overview of what they did - which is predominantly the good stuff. It is not age or skill level appropriate teaching to necessarily evaluate that further, although that might be an extension for the brightest. They just don't have the contextual and historical understanding to do it properly at that age. But your DDs lesson sounds like an age appropriate lesson, whether it is RS or History.

@Stripesnomore

I didn’t know you were allowed to remove a child from RS.

Stripes is correct- if you're in England you can remove from collective worship, but not from curriculum lessons (quite rightly).

I think you've had some brilliant responses on here, haven't read of them yet though!

I appreciate your approach and that you think you are teaching her choice to abstain from something from which she disagrees but i actually think it could be more beneficial to her to stick the classes out.

There's rising intolerance for people expressing different views and beliefs and we all need to get better at dealing with this. If she stays in classes, she'll be learning tolerance first hand and it will stretch her critical thinking- both of which are absolutely invaluable skills. Especially if she wants to go to university in the future, where much critical thinking requires people to carry a line of argument through to the conclusion, even if it doesn't represent their personal views.

I'm always surprised when I meet other atheists who express so little tolerance for people of religious beliefs. Your point that religious ppl don't have a monopoly on being good is correct, but equally they don't have a monopoly on being 'bad', wrong or intolerant.

I have many friends who clearly have religious beliefs when I get to know them and yet are obviously wary about expressing these in public which I think is really sad. We're all allowed to say what we believe without being accused of forcing it on another person. They're also lovely, tolerant people. Being Christian, for example, doesn't necessarily mean you believe gay ppl are going hell.

So often, the tendancy I see among fellow atheists is that the attitude of refusing to have part in discussion in which their beliefs are shared just shuts them down flat. Sure, if anyone expresses any opinion which is extreme you walk away but we all need to learn to respect each other and put views and part of that is in learning about them.

I think you'll be missing a trick if you pull her out of classes and she can gain so much more from being part of them simply because she doesn't believe.

I'd encourage her instead to increase her learning, so if she feels classes are limited and one sided continue the research you do and show her the others sides of the story. I think you're doing a great job - keep it up!

Thanks everyone, much food for thought here.

Religion has no place in schools whatsoever. None of the arguments for it stand up to any scrutiny.

@KeflavikAirport

Religion has no place in schools whatsoever. None of the arguments for it stand up to any scrutiny.

Teaching about religion should absolutely be taught in schools. The aim is to teach tolerance among other things.