That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

[Langrycleg]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

And you have the nerve to talk about gaslighting?

When TRAs and their allies talk about GC feminists "gaslighting", they often are actually practicing gaslighting by doing so. It's something they've appropriated, like everything they have in their arsenal, as a DARVO tactic. Well known tactics to anyone who has studied certain abusive behaviour.

Who is Sheila Jeffries ?

Abuse of female prisoners by males, be they guards or transwomen prisoners ,is appalling and should be dealt with. The use of male cleaners etc does have some protection for females as signs are always put up and this gives women the choice to enter or not but the same is not true if the male in the changing room is a transwomen.

There have been far more women prisoners harmed by male prison guards than harmed by trans women, and that's just what we know about, it's an obvious potentially dangerous power differential and surely if your aim is reducing the risk to women in prisons then this should surely be a priority. And yet silence from those who claim to be concerned with men accessing women's spaces.

There have been more women harmed by men drilling spyholes and fitting cameras in women's toilets and changing rooms than by trans women and yet again, this goes entirely unremarked. It would be relatively easy for a predatory male to see a sign saying these toilets may be cleaned by men and pose as a cleaner to attack women, yet this seems to be of no concern - and it would be relatively easy to introduce laws preventing men working in women's spaces, yet there are no calls for that. There are no calls to ban male visitors from mixed sex wards, no outrage about rape counselling centres that also provide services to men, or employ men. There are all kinds of examples where men enter single sex spaces, and ample examples of them abusing that and yet all of the anger and fear is directed at trans women. Why is that?

And imagine if toilets and changing rooms were more strictly policed, presumably often with male security guards. How do you think an abusive man might ask a vulnerable woman to prove her physical sex? Yet again there seems little concern as to the consequences of what could end up with men being the gatekeepers of some women's spaces.

He is now trying to take it to the EHRC, who I suspect will also decline to hear his case.

He's trying to take it to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), not the ideologically compromised quango that is the EHRC.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4018976-James-Caspian

Well of course there have been more women harmed by men than by transwomen

There have also been more women harmed by men than by men called Kevin , men in blue jeans , men from France ....

Who is Sheila Jeffries ?

She is a radical feminist. I thoroughly recommend her "Unpacking Queer Politics" for an understanding of queer theory and its impact on feminism.

There are no calls to ban male visitors from mixed sex wards, no outrage about rape counselling centres that also provide services to men, or employ men. There are all kinds of examples where men enter single sex spaces, and ample examples of them abusing that and yet all of the anger and fear is directed at trans women. Why is that?

This is complete nonsense.

Of course there have been more women harmed by male prison guards than tw prisoners.

That’s basic math. There are a fuck tone more male prison guards than there are tw prisoners. It’s entirely disingenuous to try and argue such a point.

In addition male prison officers are dbs checked and not hired if they have a history of sex offenses (tw aren’t refused entry from women’s prisons if they are sex offenders) and male prison guards who harm women prisoners are sacked/face criminal charges when it comes to light (whereas tw prisoners would already be in the place we send those convicted of crimes, so no way of safe guarding women prisoners).

Entirely false equivalency.

Eresh

This is entirely off thread but as you mentioned DARVO, and Jennifer Freyd was behind the use of that term, I’d like to say her book betrayal trauma theory is an incredible piece of work, in itself and considering who she is in relation to it.

In addition male prison officers are dbs checked and not hired if they have a history of sex offenses (tw aren’t refused entry from women’s prisons if they are sex offenders) and male prison guards who harm women prisoners are sacked/face criminal charges when it comes to light (whereas tw prisoners would already be in the place we send those convicted of crimes, so no way of safe guarding women prisoners).

Is Karen White still in a women's prison? And whatever vetting there has been there clearly isn't enough: www.opendemocracy.net/en/shine-a-light/sex-abusers-guarding-britain-s-most-vulnerable-children/

Getting male prison officers out of women's prisons or young offenders institutions where girls are held would be enough and yet I've never seen a gender critical activist call for that.

Of course it's unlikely that a sustained feminist campaign aginst male violence which included the removal of men from women's spaces or positions where they may have huge amounts of power over women would not have the support of the Murdoch Press. You'd be feminazis, hysterical, men hating dungaree wearing extremist lesbians. Because that's how the patriarchy has always responded to serious threats from feminism. All ganging up on trans people though, that's all good.

Ganging up on anyone is big good

Neither is trying to pretend that's what's happening

There was a thread awhile ago from women before Covid complaining at other women’s partners staying on the post natal wards, and not having a choice, while in a vulnerable state. Many actions where women ask for female health care assistants , and so on. Ongoing campaigns about policies in health trusts allowing males to be in gynaecologist wards etc.

Fighting against men self iding as women is part of the fight against male violence and we are used to members of the male sex calling us all sorts of name. The only way to keep us safe is to exclude males of all gender identities from our safe spaces as all subsets of the male sex are equally likely to be violent to women.

Gynae, I meant to say

@midgedude

Ganging up on anyone is big good

Neither is trying to pretend that's what's happening

Thats how it feels from the trans perspective believe me. To see left wing feminists, in some cases people I have known and worked alongside, defending and forming allegiances with reactionary religious groups who would like to see us jailed or dead whilst the right wing press cheers you on certainly feels a lot like being ganged up on.

Are you telling us that transwoman are not a threat to women like all other males? Do you have evidence to prove that males who identify as transwomen are less likely to be violent towards women than other males?

Small diversion here. Does anyone know why these threads aren’t trending when they are getting a lot of traffic? Don’t really know how it works.

“You’re going to be assaulted anyway so just open up women’s spaces to all blokes who identify as women” is quite telling. Your misogyny is showing.

Janice Raymond talked about morally mandating trans people out of existence using social and medical means

If anybody would like to understand the context of Janice Raymond's most mis-quoted sentence, and gain a better understanding of what she actually said, you can find a full text PDF of Raymond's book if you google 'The Transsexual Empire full text'.

For now I will just note:

1. She doesn't talk about morally mandating 'trans people' out of existence, but rather 'transsexualism'. This is the 1975 equivalent of when feminists say we'd like to get rid of gender ideology and are accused of 'denying trans people's right to exist'.

2. The 'social means' jj refers to are laws that are aimed at combating sex role stereotypes. The examples she uses are preventing the use of sexist stereotypes in school textbooks and promoting nonsexist physical education in schools. What's not to like?

3. The 'medical means' jj refers to are laws to limit the growth of the 'massive medical-technical complex of institutions that promote and perform more treatment and more surgery.' Given the extremely rapid proliferation of this medical and pharmaceutical industry in recent years and the growing catalogue of harms, especially wrt children, I think Raymond had a point.

The book was written in 1975 and is of its time. It uses terminology that some people would consider 'outdated' and it covers some themes that are difficult to discuss on MN without getting deleted. I think it's worth reading even if you disagree entirely with Raymond's position. At least you'll know where the mis-quoted sentence comes from and what Raymond meant by it.

Go on jj, for your next trick why don't you tell us all how Simone de Beauvoir was totally a trans advocate because 'One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman'?

‘That’s how it feels from the trans perspective’

I simply don’t care.

Females = 51% of the population. We are allowed to prioritise our rights and fight for our rights exclusively.

The only trans people who ever seem to care about the rights of women and girls quickly get death threats from other trans activists for daring to speak the truth.

I won’t use violence or threats of violence, but I’m not going to fall into a simpering pile of tears just because other people who may hold the same opinion on this one issue as me might. It’s not my job to police others violence towards anyone and I’m way to busy dealing with all the male violence I experience to try and prevent other violent people targeting other groups. I’m busy prioritising my rights and safety and that of my daughters. Feminism is allowed to centre females. I don’t have to fight every other cause and fix every other issue in the world when my very existence is constantly and entirely threatened by self id removing the legal definition of woman, and therefore every sex based rights legal protection. I just don’t have the luxury to not prioritise women’s rights. And doing so requires the legal definition remaining the biological one.

If I was approached by a bunch of religious misogynists who decided that being trans was okay as long as you fully transitioned and wanted to form an allegiance against gender critical feminism to help protect trans rights I would tell them in no uncertain terms to fuck off, as I suspect would any other person you might claim to be a TRA.

You might. Trans rights organisations didn't. The GRA is the product of homophobia. It was explicitly written in the way it was and publicised in the way it was in order to continue not to allow same-sex marriage in the UK.

At no point did trans rights organisations raise this issue, let alone say no, we don't want recognition in this way. It did not happen. They worked closely with homophobes for years in order to further their rights.

(I am confident in stating this because prior to lockdown I spent every day in the National Archives working my way through the letters, memos, minutes, pamphlets, briefings, comments, legal opinions and so on and so forth exchanged between all actors engaged in writing the GRA. Handwritten notes. Written up phone calls. Nada. Not one objection to homophobes working hand in hand with trans rights organisations finding ways to appease the "religious right" aka the church in order to get the GRA done.)

Sheila Jeffreys followed up by calling for any form of trans healthcare to be made a crime under human rights law.

I'd be very interested to read Sheila Jeffreys' human rights argument if you have a link. I mistrust your account because human rights law is not criminal law and from what I know of Sheila Jeffreys she would never make such a laughable mistake.

Would you like to hear how it feels from the female perspective?

@Langrycleg

Small diversion here. Does anyone know why these threads aren’t trending when they are getting a lot of traffic? Don’t really know how it works.

I have just checked front page of AIBU. I think this thread is trending alright at the moment. Not sure about earlier.