How would you react if a family member or a friend chose not to have the vaccine?

[Laiste]

Is this going to divide people and friendships?

(i know it's a minority who wont have it, but still ... how do you feel?)

Exactly. As I said... if enough people get vaccinated the virus has a hard time finding someone to infect, so in that way, yes it does affect transmission, all for the better.

@furonthecoat

I’d expect the anti vaxxer to pay additional national insurance to cover their higher risk of needing treatment from the NHS.

Let's also charge extra to everyone who's overweight, even more for those who are obese. Also smokers, drinkers, those who take part in any risky sports, anyone who engages in a high risk lifestyle, casual sex, drugs. In fact people who dare to get old are at higher risk of needing NHS treatment too so let's have an age tax aswell.

You know what, let's just go the whole ways and introduce a China/black mirror style points system where everything you do gains or loses you points based on its risk and morality. If you dont have enough points you don't get access to the NHS, or how about any public services including schools, roads ect. Sounds great doesn't it

👏🏻👏🏻

@BalthazarImpresario

I see many have already said what I did.

My sister is a nurse, has had her jabs, still got covid, still felt like shit but didn’t need anything more than rest.

Is she mistaking the body's reaction to receiving the vaccine with actually catching Covid? If so, she probably needs retraining and keeping away from patients until she can tell the difference between a viral infection and a stated reaction to a vaccination.

Why are people so rude on here?
I would assume the poster's sister had a covid test which came back positive. And doesn't need 're-training'
My DH has just had his first jab and reacted slightly to it.
It obviously wasn't covid as such

Disappointment especially as mine is in a CEV group but it's his choice and hopefully if we all get it we will protect him.

@tootiredtospeak

Disappointment especially as mine is in a CEV group but it's his choice and hopefully if we all get it we will protect him.

How? And surely if we had all stayed in our homes in the beginning like we were supposed to we would have also have protected him.

This virus can only be transmitted from one person to another person, and it can only get into the body through the holes in the face. The protection mechanism and elimination of the virus is simple, except people are not capable of keeping themselves clean, keeping themselves away from other people outside of their own households, and wearing the appropriate protective equipment when they do.

@Roussette

Why are people so rude on here? I would assume the poster's sister had a covid test which came back positive. And doesn't need 're-training' My DH has just had his first jab and reacted slightly to it. It obviously wasn't covid as such

Well, I'm sure the poster will be able to tell us.

@LadyMayoGoodway

Not been goady *@Beetlewing* but how is it having another half like that. 10 years ago before all this bollocks was fashionable my brother got sectioned - pretty much the only symptom was a rabid belief in bonkers conspiracy theories.

It's crap basically. I've mentioned on here before how he has fallen right down the rabbit hole and caught on to anything that 'felt subversive' to him. He thinks he's got some insider information. So yeah, Wayfair kids in cabinets, Bill gates 5g microchip, Donald trump won the election etc etc. However, body autonomy means it's entirely up to him if he has the vaccine or not though, but in general it has contributed to the many reasons I don't want to be with him anymore. I'll be moving out as soon as the world gets over covid.

Transmission drops when there's less people to infect. The other diseases we vaccinate against still exist, but the herd immunisation via vaccination means their transmission is minimal.

This. Clear, simple, accurate. Thanks for explaining it so well!

@QueenoftheAir

Transmission drops when there's less people to infect. The other diseases we vaccinate against still exist, but the herd immunisation via vaccination means their transmission is minimal.

This. Clear, simple, accurate. Thanks for explaining it so well!

But The Spanish Flu is still here every year and I don't know of anyone who has been vaccinated against it. We only vaccinate the elderly in case they develop pneumonia and die.

And of course you cannot catch mumps or measles without allowing it in through your face holes, so body hygiene and PPE are just as effective at combating those viruses too. It is 100% effective if people di it right. If they don't then that's their lookout.

I'm not advocating towards anti-vax, BTW. Just questioning the underlying premise.

There is no evidence that these vaccinations create herd immunity. That is all assumption. No-one has yet made the claim that these vaccines stop the spread of the virus that I am aware of. So why would people make assumptions? And if they do, why would people ridicule and vilify people who are not willing to make the same assumptions?

But The Spanish Flu is still here every year and I don't know of anyone who has been vaccinated against it. We only vaccinate the elderly in case they develop pneumonia and die.

The Spanish flu virus has become a seasonal from a pandemic virus, where when there was no immunity there is now some societal exposure. We also vaccinate a lot more than the elderly - those with many underlying conditions are entitled to it under nhs and anyone or any company who is willing to pay for it can access it. Coronaviruses however aren't influenza and the pathogens and their subsequent paths are not the same.

And of course you cannot catch mumps or measles without allowing it in through your face holes, so body hygiene and PPE are just as effective at combating those viruses too. It is 100% effective if people di it right. If they don't then that's their lookout.
Given that until recently a decent chunk of the population was vaccinated enough to protect largely against it, and that those who are more likely to catch them are children notorious for liking to put things in their mouths and have little regard for hygiene or ppe it's not really an effective counter for something preventable.

There is no evidence that these vaccinations create herd immunity. That is all assumption. No-one has yet made the claim that these vaccines stop the spread of the virus that I am aware of. So why would people make assumptions? And if they do, why would people ridicule and vilify people who are not willing to make the same assumptions?

Upthread I quoted Prof. Van Tam and Patrick Vallance, Chief Scientific Officer saying exactly the opposite to you. Post at 08.18 this morning.
I imagine they, being the scientists, know more than a lot of us on here.

@Roussette

There is no evidence that these vaccinations create herd immunity. That is all assumption. No-one has yet made the claim that these vaccines stop the spread of the virus that I am aware of. So why would people make assumptions? And if they do, why would people ridicule and vilify people who are not willing to make the same assumptions?

Upthread I quoted Prof. Van Tam and Patrick Vallance, Chief Scientific Officer saying exactly the opposite to you. Post at 08.18 this morning.
I imagine they, being the scientists, know more than a lot of us on here.

So far that is opinion. That was what I was pointing out. As it stands people are taking opinion as fact and then vilifying those who don't have the same opinion as them. There is a difference between a fact and an opinion. If you are going to vilify people, at least do it based on a fact and not yours or someone else's opinion.

I would listen to a scientist's opinion. You may not. Your choice. I would prefer that opinion to randoms off a forum.

And I have not vilified anyone. At the beginning of the thread I said the word 'selfish' and that is the worst thing I have said. To vilify means to abusively disparage someone. I have not.

@Roussette

There is no evidence that these vaccinations create herd immunity. That is all assumption. No-one has yet made the claim that these vaccines stop the spread of the virus that I am aware of. So why would people make assumptions? And if they do, why would people ridicule and vilify people who are not willing to make the same assumptions?

Upthread I quoted Prof. Van Tam and Patrick Vallance, Chief Scientific Officer saying exactly the opposite to you. Post at 08.18 this morning.
I imagine they, being the scientists, know more than a lot of us on here.

That poster also doesn't seem to understand how scientific proof works, either. They can not claim anything without data and evidence backing it up. Doesn't mater how "sure" they personally are- for all we know the scientists could know 100% that it prevents transmission, but it's not proven, they can't make that claim publicly.

Literally wouldn't even occur to me to react to it in any way. Totally their own choice.

@countbackfromten

Thank you. For everything.

I have already ‘unbubbled’ with another single parent because she started work in a care home and refused the vaccine.

I understand feeling cautious I really do but I put that energy into educating myself and with all the information available there is a clear benefit to vaccination.

I wouldn’t not judge anyone who had actual reasons, be they a history of vaccine injury or immune issues or whatever but because you read something on the internet that made your worried?
Get a grip.

We are privileged to be able to access medical care those who lived through the plague or the Spanish flu would have sacrificed their first borns for but some people see that as an excuse not to bother

They can not claim anything without data and evidence backing it up. Doesn't mater how "sure" they personally are - for all we know the scientists could know 100% that it prevents transmission, but it's not proven, they can't make that claim publicly.
Isn't that the very definition of a fact. Something that is proven by scientific data? Prior to there existing scientific data, you have suspicion and speculation. First they speculate that it might be so, then they have the suspicion that it is so. Then they have the data to prove that they were right. So telling everyone that it does something, when quite clearly there is not proof, is speculation.

And if it is proven to save lives, then why not make it compulsory to everyone who wishes to interact with other people? I'm not saying stop people from going for walks in parks or going to the cashpoint machine, but at what point does it become unacceptable for people to take deliberate actions (refusing a vaccine is a deliberate action) that they know will kill people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons?

Or are we saying everyone should be allowed to do what the F they like, and we should all just fill threads with vitriol and condemnation without ever postulating some sort of solution?

Absolutely no-one should be permitted to work in any front facing role in the care community without a vaccine. All roles where the victim has no option, the staff should be compelled to be vaccinates. If someone is in hospital as a result of a car accident, renal failure, whatever - all staff who care for the elderly where the elderly are clearly vulnerable and have no choice - anyone who cares for children where the children have no choice but to be there - we need to get to a point where all the staff are given vaccines. If they refuse you issue them with a warning that you are aware that they are knowingly endangering the people in their care and should not return to work until they are willing to work in a manner that does not endanger the care of the people in their care. If they then refuse to take action you sack them.

But you cannot do anything without scientific fact, and it is really hypocritical for people to throw around vitriol and disgust based on zero facts, and still suggest people should have freedom to choose when those choices are already known to kill.

@countbackfromten another thank you from me. I have tears in my eyes from reading your powerful posts. My job is wearing enough, but I don't know how you do yours!

Thank you [flower]

Isn't that the very definition of a fact. Something that is proven by scientific data? Prior to there existing scientific data, you have suspicion and speculation. First they speculate that it might be so, then they have the suspicion that it is so. Then they have the data to prove that they were right. So telling everyone that it does something, when quite clearly there is not proof, is speculation.
That's not how building scientific proof works. In the case with say the AZ vaccine there's some data to suggest it reduces transmission - they don't know if this will bear out when it rolls out en masse and they know this is a potential boon. When they've said his data exists and it will be monitored, it's not speculation. It is speculation to suggest there's no evidence, when in fact there's some. And when it comes to immunity levels and transmission, the scientists themselves are very rightly using the correct terms which may be "some" but they are not working from a null evidence base on any of these vaccines, or drugs and treatments for that matter.

WRT forcing people to have vaccines, that's not a route we've chosen to go down as a country. Other countries have chosen this route. Both those things may change depending on public mood at any point. But there's always been the case in order to do certain things (work and leisure alike), certain vaccinations are required. That's unlikely to change.

None of my business. None of their business.

ElliFAntspoo

There is no evidence that these vaccinations create herd immunity. That is all assumption. No-one has yet made the claim that these vaccines stop the spread of the virus that I am aware of. So why would people make assumptions? And if they do, why would people ridicule and vilify people who are not willing to make the same assumptions?“

I’m sure there’s quite a lot of evidence that not having a vaccine does bugger all to stop the spread of the virus.
I’ll take a vaccine developed by people who know what they’re doing, if it’s all the same to you.

@LegoCaltrops

My mother is going to refuse it. She believes God will protect her. She also doesn't SD properly - again, as she believes God will protect her. I'm chronically ill & I don't know what to do. My sister & BIL had CV last year, with minimal symptoms so they now think they're immune, they plan to refuse it too.

Sounds like you need to keep your distance. If they ask, explain. If they tell you you're nuts, tell them to FO.

Its a shame when your family walk away from you, but that's what they are doing. If what you're saying is true, they don't care about you.