To think that JK Rowling is being very unfairly treated.

[Impatiens]

For some people the name JK Rowling seems to have become a byword for 'bigot' or 'transphobe' - you only have to mention her name on twitter to cause a storm of accusations and abuse about her and I think it's really unjust.

This week it was announced that a new Harry Potter TV series is in development. Cue howls of outrage from certain people, repeating the same insults and even accusing her of being a bad influence on children. I feel so bad for her. She's always been someone who seemed to want to do good with her wealth and whose books (whether you like them or not) sent a positive message about the need to fight against evil.

A very brief recap of things Rowling has said about the trans debate that have caused anger -

1. Human biological sex can't be changed (females can't become males/vice versa) and no one should lose their job for saying that.

1. The word 'Woman' is being erased, particularly from important health messages that only affect females, and replaced with dehumanising terms like 'menstruators', 'cervix-havers' etc

1. Children/young people who have Gender Dysphoria/Identify as Transgender, shouldn't be given medication as part of any treatment because they're too young to understand the potential side effects.

YABU = JK Rowling's comments were offensive and she deserves the abuse she gets
YANBU = JK Rowling's comments were respectful opinions and she's entitled to voice them without getting abuse.

The difference is that in trans you accept that you are wrong

In gender none conforming you accept that you are fine and society is wrong

Can you be more specific about her opinions on trans ppl that you don't agree with? Do you disagree that people can't change sex?

There's plenty in it. I can't recall all of her website post now - was a long one - but I remember her talking about the bathroom issue. That's a good example of something I'm not agreeing with her on.

I genuinely couldn't care less whether or not people can physically change sex. Doesn't matter to me. Can they change chromosomes and thus change sex? Nope. I'm still happy to call them women. It doesn't impact my opinion on whether or not they should be in the same bathroom as me, I should be using female pronouns, if I should avoid their deadnames.

As I said, let those who want to boycott boycott. I presume a lot who agree with her will tune in specifically to support? That's alright by me too.

@SionnachRua

Can you be more specific about her opinions on trans ppl that you don't agree with? Do you disagree that people can't change sex?

There's plenty in it. I can't recall all of her website post now - was a long one - but I remember her talking about the bathroom issue. That's a good example of something I'm not agreeing with her on.

I genuinely couldn't care less whether or not people can physically change sex. Doesn't matter to me. Can they change chromosomes and thus change sex? Nope. I'm still happy to call them women. It doesn't impact my opinion on whether or not they should be in the same bathroom as me, I should be using female pronouns, if I should avoid their deadnames.

As I said, let those who want to boycott boycott. I presume a lot who agree with her will tune in specifically to support? That's alright by me too.

Her essay was posted earlier in the thread if you want to refresh your memory.

In fact I might do that now.

Btw, I'm well aware that there will probably be an avalanche of replies. I've seen how these threads play out, I know it's a circular conversation at best - and sometimes not even a conversation, just people scoring points. I've no interest in wasting my Friday night on it so I won't engage.

I hope you all enjoy supporting JKR content but it isn't for me. That's not snarky either. I just don't wish to support someone with her views.

FWIW, there is only one reference to bathrooms in her essay.

"So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth."

I'm curious which part of that anyone could disagree with.

@Crumpledandcreased

I don't agree that she deserved online abuse/bullying, but I think expressing transphobic views on a public platform was always going to bring negative attention her way and she surely expected it. She said some wise words on different issues over the years but her views on trans women have certainly changed my view of her.

What did she say that is transphobic? I think that there is a lobby now which conflates any questioning or difference of opinion as transphobia. Like the lobby which rolls up not agreeing with Israeli policies with anti Semitism. We are losing a lot of nuance, and enabling those at the extreme end of the view point (whatever that is) to dictate terms. Which then closes down any discussion. Which is really scary.

@SionnachRua

Thanks. So do you consider her views to be bigoted and/or transphobic?

Btw, I'm well aware that there will probably be an avalanche of replies. I've seen how these threads play out, I know it's a circular conversation at best - and sometimes not even a conversation, just people scoring points. I've no interest in wasting my Friday night on it so I won't engage.

Seems an odd thing to say after engaging but..ok.

YANBU OP.

Rowling has had a brutal time with the media and public recently, for basically saying what most of us are thinking.

Whatever happened to "freedom of speech" 🤔

YANBU

[quote Impatiens]**@SionnachRua

Thanks. So do you consider her views to be bigoted and/or transphobic?[/quote]
She's an interesting one because I feel she puts a very civil, eloquent veneer on the absolute bile spewed on some forums. Not that she's deliberately doing that, I just feel she's socially palatable in a way that Graham Linehan (for example) isn't.

I've never personally thought of her as a bigot - I reserve that for Linehan and co - but I would probably call her views transphobic and disappointing, yes. Which is not something I want to support. Just as I wouldn't buy from Jeffree Star.

Black people have been subjected to systemic racism - for centuries. It’s interesting that a relatively ‘new’ minority group has been able to aggressively assert its rights so quickly, by imposing on another group that has similarly faced oppression in various forms - for centuries.

Then you realise that group is mostly men and all your questions are answered.

Rowling has had a brutal time with the media and public recently, for basically saying what most of us are thinking.

This is what's so unbearable - she's basically being hung out to dry because others are too cowardly to stand up and speak their minds. I was heartened to see Eddie Izzard supporting her (despite him being a bit of a wazzock in other ways) but so few have.

Worse actually - people who she once knew well and who basically owe their careers to her, like Emma Watson and Daniel Radcliffe, chose to stab her in the back when she was already facing a storm of abuse.

Bike and bigot?!

Reminds me of the old joke about Microsoft and the colours black and white

@Impatiens

Btw, I'm well aware that there will probably be an avalanche of replies. I've seen how these threads play out, I know it's a circular conversation at best - and sometimes not even a conversation, just people scoring points. I've no interest in wasting my Friday night on it so I won't engage.

Seems an odd thing to say after engaging but..ok.

It isn't aimed at you but I have seen plenty of these threads where people just engage in cheap point scoring. I'll ignore those quite happily.

Tbh I will probably head off soon enough as I'm a glass and a half of wine in and want to watch Drag Race.

This is a social media board that is mainly female. You are slightly preaching to the converted. I obviously voted YANBU. I wish that there could be rational debate about this without the calls of bigotry because I support both women's right and trans rights and it is not necessary for the two to clash. There just need to be respect from the general population about the needs of trans people (a safe third space, the right to their own pronoun, not to suffer abuse for ho they dress/act etc) but at the same time respect for the genuine needs of women to have women only spaces, their own sex and protection from male violence. I can't see how two groups who have both had their rights trampled upon can not simply try to work with each other. Women fear male abusers using the self-identification legialstion to enter women only spaces and prey upon vulnerable females. Surely trans-women would detest the same thing?
To be a woman (or at least for a woman like me approaching 50) there has always seemed to be a need to accept that physically you are weaker (albeit mentally you are usually stronger) than the men around you and your biology prevents you (sometimes) from achieving the same thing as you might if you are a male (glass ceilings, childbirth etc). I would think part of becoming a genuine woman, for a trans woman is to understand that, understand the specific restrictions/vulnerabilities of the sex you would like to become/identify as and support the concerns they have. I don't think it makes you less of a woman to identify with the concerns of other women. (I am an educated woman of independent means who can earn a huge salary if I wish to and I would never have an abortion - I have no need to support child maintenance laws, domestic violence laws, equality in divorce laws, the right to abortion etc but I do because I am a woman and other women need that protection due to the circumstances they were born in/find themselves in. Usually because of their biology as the person that bears children. I will always protest against the rights of the patriarchy to protect other women. I owe that to myself, my daughters, my mother and my grandmother. In fact if you identify as part of my gender/sex I feel it is your very responsibility to think about this. Think about why a 13 year old child, a rape victim, a female prisoner might be frightened to find someone with a penis in their personal, private space when they may have suffered intimidation from men in other contexts. This is where I think the militant trans lobby are not acting like "women". Equally is there more that feminists could do to try to reach out to young trans-women already "othered" by changing sex. Should we really be havign a rights based discourse which is the language of men but should we instead be having a discourse based more upon collaboration.

@LAgeDeRaisin

Some children clearly identify as the opposite biological sex and live that way throughout their childhood and I think it may be appropriate to have puberty blockers

But what does that even mean? How can you identify as the opposite sex as a child? When I was young some girls had short hair and liked football. Some boys did gymnastics. They were still female or male. What can a boy do or be as a child that a girl can't, and thus means she has to identify as a boy? How can they possibly underatand the complex social implications of being either male or female? How does liking stereotypically male or female activities have any bearing on anything at all, apart, perhaps, from a societal need to stop seeing ponies as for girls and rugby for boys.

The prospect of the medical side of this, as a doctor, really concerns me.

Well maybe ‘identify’ was the wrong word to use as it too associated with the adolescent gender dysphoria about which I have already expressed my concern.

It’s not primarily to do with preferring stereotypical activities of the other sex. It is more of a feeling that is hard to define. If you feel like the sex you are born to it’s maybe impossible to truly understand.

A significant proportion of young children do revert back to their biological sex after a couple of years or so. However there are some that from as soon as they can talk express the view that they are a different sex and this persists throughout their childhood and adolescent. This is not going to change. Puberty blockers will allow them to transition to the person they want to be and not stick out for their whole lives as some kind of oddity. It’s a tiny percentage. Hence why it needs a critical review rather than the gender-affirmation ethos that characterises gender identity clinics and gender issue psychologists today

@SionnachRua okay but which of her views are transphobic? You mentioned her views on bathrooms earlier so I posted the extract from her essay where she mentions bathrooms. What specifically from that extract about bathrooms do you disagree with?

I genuinely couldn't care less whether or not people can physically change sex. Doesn't matter to me. Can they change chromosomes and thus change sex? Nope. I'm still happy to call them women.

But in real life, things don’t stop here.
Would you like your daughter to play rugby against a trans woman? Do you know the chances of injury? You are ok with that?

Do you want your daughter to compete in other sports with a trans woman having an absolute advantage even before the competition starts?

And that is just tip of the iceberg.

I've never personally thought of her as a bigot - I reserve that for Linehan and co - but I would probably call her views transphobic and disappointing, yes. Which is not something I want to support. Just as I wouldn't buy from Jeffree Star.

I'm not familiar with Jeffree Star, sorry.

Isn't there a gulf between not wanting to support someone and thinking they're transphobic? To me, an accusation of 'transphobia' is a very serious issue because it's basically saying you have hatred and disgust for trans people.

[quote JoodyBlue]@BudgieHammockBananaSmuggler what did we did do before there were puberty blockers available?[/quote]
People born as men lived their whole lives as females but were laughed at and ostracised because they looked weird. For example.

Agree with her all the way. It's madness to say trans women are the same as biological women

Puberty blockers will allow them to transition to the person they want to be and not stick out for their whole lives as some kind of oddity.

How will puberty blockers do that? They can't make someone change sex.

Also what will the other consequences be? A lifetime of ill-health? That's not something a young person can possibly comprehend or properly consent to.

Where does itv end ? Medically treating people to be who they want to be ? Why is it not considered just cosmetic surgery?

There used to be a regular poster on here who took puberty blockers for a short time as an adult and was quite vocal about the fact they had destroyed her health. She regretted taking them and was horrified by the fact that they were being given to children with no thought to the lasting consequences to their health.