AIBU - Pride & Prejudice.

[2020iscancelled]

A much beloved book
A fantastic BBC adaptation mini series

Then the horror of THAT awful, awful Keira Knightly film.

I knew it was bad but I rewatched it recently and it is just terrible.

I will concede the film itself is fine, the locations beautiful and no issues with the acting per se. But it is so far away from the real P&P it’s actually criminal.

So AIBU?

YABU - it’s wonderful and sums up the story to perfection.

YANBU - it’s an abomination

The NC business between Bennets and Collins Senior suggests how difficult Elizabeth's family members were. Yes, that plot point explains why Mrs B didn't go for it earlier on. There was some etiquette about the eldest being proposed to first. ( There's that medieval song by Pentangle about a suitor choosing the elder of two North Sea sisters while loving the younger).

It's a bit annoying that Mr Collins didn't seem to appreciate how lucky he was to have Charlotte.

I trying to remember how is it suggested that Mr C doesn't appreciate Charlotte?

He does say that their minds are as one and I think Lady C likes her. They have a baby on the way by the end, which must have been joyful.

KK is awful in everything.
Jennifer Ehle - no one will do Lizzie better than she

Agree with a previous poster that the BBC version is too drawn out. The length of the KK film version is perfect.

Kiera Knightley has a classic look that makes her perfect for historical film. I can't imagine anyone else playing her role in Atonement for example.

I think Lizzy says to Lady deB that none of the sisters had had the benefit of tutors, but they were free to read the books in the library and to educate their minds. I guess that would have been a less than great start for being governesses. Looks like the Bennets hadn't thought things through at all well. Not saving some money regularly - crikey. Child mortality was quite high, wasn't it? Even if you'd had a son...who's to say he would have survived.

I wonder what Lizzy thought when she went to stay with Charlotte near Rosings. She would have had opinions on Mr C which would have remained the same and would have gained confirmation by many irritating utterances. It's at this point, that I see her as a kind of feminist: she's not setting absolute store on marriage, but is thinking of the dignity of the individual, the freedom of choice humans have. But what does she think is going to happen to her in future. My Gardiner and the other uncle and aunt will support the family for a while. But how not to be a burden. Is she storing the notion of governessship at the back of her mind? Then, she isn't going out of her way to read up or polish her drawing skills, or get ahead of the game. She not thinking at all sensibly. I bet she'd be like the Brontë sister who wrote about being a governess and how the kids she looked after were annoying ( It's a GCSE practice text in one of the CGP or Letts or something practice guides).

I think Mr Collins had a high opinion of what he had to offer as a husband, so in that sense felt entitled to gain the wife of his choice (his pride was dented by Lizzy's refusal) but he did feel grateful for Charlotte's good qualities and the harmony between them (not being aware that maintaining harmony needed a great deal of forbearance on Charlotte's part).

I think Elizabeth was confident she'd find a husband sooner or later. Look at how confident she was on Jane's behalf when Mr Bingley first appeared. She knew she was attractive and clever, sooner or later a husband would turn up. This seems a reasonable hope on the basis of how the single men in the book react to her - as well as proposals from Darcy and Collins, Wickham fancies her until he realises she isn't rich and Col. Fitzwilliam tells her in a roundabout way that he fancies her but can't afford to pursue her.

Elizabeth's surprise when Charlotte accepts Mr C also suggests she has no real concept of living in a world where few people are attracted to you.

There's also the point that Lizzie was given an extremely high opinion of herself by her father in particular.

I think there was a slight arrogance to her. She was clever and sensible, well aware of her faults as well as her charms, but I can see her stubbornly refusing to accept any proposal if she wasn't truly in love. I think she wouldn't have had that much of a problem in being a dependent of Jane and Bingley, for example.

I don't think the "pride" referred only to Darcy.

One thing I wondered is what happens to Mrs Bennett once Mr Collins inherits their home (assuming Mr Bennett dies before her) - now that Jane and Elizabeth have made auspicious marriages, would their spouses be expected to house Mrs B and any unmarried sisters?

@Ifyourefeelingsinister yes either that or give them a cottage on their estate. Looking after your family and in laws, no matter how annoying and inconvenient, and preventing destitution, was very much the done thing at the time especially with the wealthy.

I started another thread in telly addicts about how great the BBC production is and someone said a book called The Other Miss Bennet (written a few years ago) is from Mary's POV and covers the events of P&P and after when her father dies. I've ordered it!

@Needhelp101

I'd just like to say that I always LOVE a Mumsnet Austen discussion

Me too, me too 🤩

Thanks to one of these JA threads, I recently read Longbourne by Jo Baker. What amazing book, it’s firmly on my top 3 best ever books now.

I like both Mr Collins version but in both, Movie and BBC adaptation he’s too old. According to Longbourne he’s very young, quite shy and hasn’t been portrayed as sleazy or revolting.

And FWIW MM as Darcy is just too dreamy!

I think there was a slight arrogance to her. She was clever and sensible, well aware of her faults as well as her charms, but I can see her stubbornly refusing to accept any proposal if she wasn't truly in love. I think she wouldn't have had that much of a problem in being a dependent of Jane and Bingley, for example

Yes she actually states early on in the book that only the "deepest love would induce her to matrimony" and as a result she'll "end up an old maid teaching Jane's 10 children how to sew". I think WRT love, Lizzie could take it or leave it

Thanks Jamesmiddleton. Must order that book. I loved Longbourn, the book - such a different perspective, particularly of Mr Bennett.

@Ifyourefeelingsinister

One thing I wondered is what happens to Mrs Bennett once Mr Collins inherits their home (assuming Mr Bennett dies before her) - now that Jane and Elizabeth have made auspicious marriages, would their spouses be expected to house Mrs B and any unmarried sisters?

If I remember rightly Jane and Bingley move out of Nether field and closer to Lizzie and Darcy at the end of the book. Getting away from the Bennett family was alluded to. But, yes I think Mrs Bennett would have been the responsibility of her wealthy sons in law once Mr Bennett died.

I agree that Lizzy is popular. She could be a dependent of Jane and Bingley if that were to come off. I see the failings of the parents written large upon the preconceptions of the daughter. Absolutely, she tells Jane that Bingley looks to be very in love with her, whereas Jane, perhaps caution making her the more astute of the two isn't sure, or isn't sure she trusts to the lasting quality of these sudden admirations and intoxications. Jane doesn't give encouragement, she keeps things at the 'just getting to know each other - don't presume' level.

What about Jane Fairfax in Emma. She is what we would call stunning. Truly poised and elegant. She's a what we'd call 'professional level' pianist. And yet, nobody seriously deters her from taking up governessship. And she's twenty one, so nobody has claimed her hand at seventeen, eighteen or nineteen. Fortune mattered in those day. JA would write that realisation into the stories. Jane Fairfax was toured around watering holes with her kind and beneficent friends, the daughter of the family detracting nothing from Jane's charm, but no marriage proposals, in spite of her nice connections.

Perhaps Jane Fairfax's understanding with Frank Churchill stopped her from encouraging the attentions of other men?

I think it is part of Lizzy's flawed understanding of life, a kind of willful idealism, that she doesn't see that what should happen isn't necessarily going to, because of the obstacle posed by the constraints and forms of society. She is an original thinker.

But, from a dramatic point of view, Darcy's courtship of Lizzy is more amazing and wondrous because her lack of fortune is disadvantaging her.

There's a difference between being fancied and sought out and propositioned for marriage. Denny hasn't courted Lizzy, ( well, I suppose he wouldn't step on Wickham's toes) or other men in the locality. Not even Jane has made a marriage, and yet she is probably twenty-two and beautiful.

What about Harriet Smith in Emma? That didn't go too well, Emma's plan to marry her off. Mr Knightley thought she'd capture the writing tutor at least, but it was no easy matter to marry if you were not well-connected with a good dowry and fortune.

It's true that Jane Fairfax would have deterred other suitors, but her kind champions and sponsors are not sidelining being a governess as a very last resort. She'd met Frank at that watering hole and when they nearly drowned, but there would have been time before that for suitors to advance their suit. She didn't know Frank for four years or something, I don't think.

@Diverseopinions don't forget Harriet Smith was illegitimate. That was her biggest barrier to a 'good' marriage. Mr Knightly knew that her marrying Robert Martin would do the best job at washing that stain from her.

I think with Jane Fairfax it would have been seen as a major offence if she'd married before Miss Campbell. I get the sense that until she married Mr Dixon, Jane couldn't even think about trying to sort her own marriage out

Emma's optimism about Harriet's marriage prospects was partly founded on the misconception that her father was a gentleman. When Harriet eventually marries Robert Martin (a realistic match for someone in her position) and her father is discovered to be a tradesman, Emma is embarrassed that she thought of connecting Frank Churchill and even Elton (who by then has been revealed to be a cad) to the illegitimate daughter of a tradesman.

It's interesting that Knightly comments that, in Harriet, Emma chose a better wife for Elton than he chose himself - based on Harriet being essentially simple and good-natured, despite Augusta being (although vulgar and spiteful) rich and of respectable birth.

I rewatched the bbc P and P recently thanks to a thread on here although it does tend to get rewatched every few years anyway. One thing I love is the fact that it's all smouldering looks and subtle longing and not the obligatory shagging and nudity in every recent period drama. Having said that I did like Bridgerton but you knew what you were getting with that, was more of a soap than a period drama.

@Hopeisnotastrategy

Both had their merits, though obviously so much had to be condensed into the film. What made the BBC version so much less than it could have been was Alison Steadman's performance. I normally love her but in this she was so wrong, with her screeching all the time. Mrs Bennet was a silly woman and very irritating, but with five daughters to marry off she had a real problem. She was irritating and silly, but not vicious, as AS so often portrayed her. She was hard work and detracted from the performance, and it was such a shame.

Couldn't agree more. She was beyond awful. To be fair to her she was being directed and I can't imagine what the director was thinking.