AIBU - Pride & Prejudice.

[2020iscancelled]

A much beloved book
A fantastic BBC adaptation mini series

Then the horror of THAT awful, awful Keira Knightly film.

I knew it was bad but I rewatched it recently and it is just terrible.

I will concede the film itself is fine, the locations beautiful and no issues with the acting per se. But it is so far away from the real P&P it’s actually criminal.

So AIBU?

YABU - it’s wonderful and sums up the story to perfection.

YANBU - it’s an abomination

The best Austen adaptation is Clueless. The end.

DD14 just read P&P at school last term and they made them watch the KK film. Cue me ranting about how much I hated it! Matthew McF is just not Darcy, KK is nothing like Lizzie and her total reliance on that grin in place of acting drives me mad.

I always thought Susanna Harker’s Jane reflected the conventions of beauty at the time rather than what is considered attractive now.

The best Austen adaptation is Clueless. The end.

Absolutely.

Clueless is such a gem. Love that film.

@Remaker

DD14 just read P&P at school last term and they made them watch the KK film. Cue me ranting about how much I hated it! Matthew McF is just not Darcy, KK is nothing like Lizzie and her total reliance on that grin in place of acting drives me mad.

I always thought Susanna Harker’s Jane reflected the conventions of beauty at the time rather than what is considered attractive now.

I agree. She looked very ‘of the time’.

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

The best Austen adaptation is Clueless. The end.

Totally

they all spoke like they were going for the Olympic Gold medal in fast talking.

YANBU op. I went to the cinema to watch it with a friend and I complained the whole way though - nearly got asked to leave!

Totally awful acting and script.

@LApprentiSorcier

I've seen worse. The Billie Piper version of Mansfield Park makes Kiera's P&P look like a masterpiece.

God yes it was awful. What was with all the running up and down stairs and leaping about gleefully. Fanny would never run downstairs like a child.

I suppose the problem with Mansfield Park adaptations is that the lead character is insipid as hell and TV and film companies can't seem to do insipid women, they all have to be bouncy and charming and simpering

@LApprentiSorcier

Mr Collins as described by Austen:

"He was a tall, heavy-looking young man of five-and-twenty. His air was grave and stately, and his manners were very formal.”

From that description, Miles Jupp could probably have had a good go at the character and brought out the comedy - he played a similar self-important-but-masking-social-awkwardness character in Rev. However, I’m not sure anyone could beat David Bamber’s oleaginous portrayal, particularly around Lady CdB.

@dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby

I like both versions. The BBC one is my favourite of the two but obviously it is much longer and most of the dialogue is from the novel. The film does give a good summary and has an earthier feel..especially the Ball scenes which seem more like a drunken brawl compared to the BBC rendition.

Yes , I like both too, (although I share pps loathing of AS as Mrs B in the BBC series ). I was also going to post that the ball scenes in the film were excellent.

I always thought Susanna Harker’s Jane reflected the conventions of beauty at the time rather than what is considered attractive now.

That's what my GCSE English teacher told us - that she was perfectly cast as she represented what was considered beautiful at the time the book was set.

My class and I were a bit confused initially as by early 00s standards of beauty Lizzy was prettier than Jane.

I agree with whoever said that Rupert Friend made an excellent Wickham - he was more dashing. It was a shame the film didn't have the time to expand that storyline more. Mr Bennet's line about how he is prodigiously proud his son in law and defies even Sir William Lucas to produce a better one is one of my favourites in the book. As well as Mr Bennet's 'he simmers and smirks and makes love to us all' line. The BBC Wickham portrayed Wickham's smarminess well tbf.

I always thought Susanna Harker’s Jane reflected the conventions of beauty at the time rather than what is considered attractive now.

Yes that's what I've been lead to believe as well and when you see the portrait that Austen based Jane on (according to other writing at the time) you can see why.

I think Rosamund pike is very similar though, quite flat faced (that sounds horrible, I don't mean it to!).

YABU. The KK version is much better than the BBC version. The ages are so off and IIRC the actress who played Jane was quite obviously pregnant.

I really like Tom Hollander in the KK version too.

YABVU. Its one of my favourite films, I love everything about it. And much prefer it to the old BBC adaptation!

I want to watch it now! 🙈

I think JA did compose some of her story ideas when a young girl/ teenager. She returned to work them up later. I think P and P has that juvenile outlook, in a way: the world seen through the eyes and the principles of the all-or-nothing young. I've no doubt EB is a version of JA herself - hence the appeal of the novel. The detailed writing allows us to see the nuances and to speculate on all the possibilities which could have occurred had events happened differently.

I guess KK is youthful in looks and outlook which makes her a good match for certain of EB's attitudes. A dizzy, coltish performance of Lizzy accords with that juvenilia- worked -up- to -masterpiece theory.

I think Jennifer E did a lot of making things make sense by acting/appearing to think more than she says. She does a lot of pursing her lips, flashing her eyes and suggesting lots of feelings which her Lizzy is not going to show because it wouldn't match the dignity her breeding has given her. Is KK's take on Lizzy even a dignified one? Is it convincing for the social milieu of the times?

It's astonishing that Mr B hadn't cultivated Mr Collins already and invited him over to get to know Jane. She was amenable and unselfish. She might have accepted Mr C who would have been delighted by the beauty of the eldest. That could have happened a few years before Mr Collins letter. Why on earth wouldn't the Bs have considered this? Stupid Mr B not listening to his practical wife. Even when Mr Bingley made small talk and admiring approached to Jane - what was that? They didn't really know him. He wasn't of an old family. His father hadn't had time to establish his country seat ( it wasn't ancestral). He might have been a cad. Madness not to have lined up the man who will inherit Longbourne well in advance and secure the bird in the hand. Even Mrs. B should have thought of this. We can see that Lizzy is influenced by her father's silly habit of being unworldly and poking fun at the unintellectual. But it's a young, headstrong, naive character who would think nobody would want Mr Collins ( he's big and manly) - and maybe JA was that teenager herself when she first conceived the plot for P and P. She might have been someone who wouldn't be told. And to see Pemberley and suddenly think - oh gosh, what have I turned down, is a young and callow thing to happen.
What a scandal Lydia remaining unmarried would have been. Poverty would surely have beckoned. Not even a governess job. Mr C would probably have let all the family stay on at Longbourne and would have found suitable curates for the sisters to marry, had the liked them, had he wed Jane and taken that acting head of the household role. He probably didn't represent that awful a match, when all is said and done. Genuine is better than Wickham. It's a juvenile outlook not to at least consider that he has some merits, and not just to say 'I don't feel ready just yet to marry anybody'. Castigating Charlotte was a bit immature. So, yes, maybe JE did put over Lizzy as being a bit too sensible, wise and perceptive: KK's wildness might capture some truth about the character. But Elizabeth Garvey with her intellect was probably truest of all.

What I'm thinking is that if Jane had married Mr C years before, or even when Bingley was showing some indeterminate interest, he would have settled with her near or at Longbourne;, helped the girls find partners; stopped Lydia going wild; helped her marry someone. Would Lydia have become a prostitute if Wickham hadn't married her? There's a quote about the fear of Lydia's fate being known and people saying that Lydia Bingley has 'come upon the town' or something. I didn't know what that meant.

I'd just like to say that I always LOVE a Mumsnet Austen discussion

Lydia Bennet, I meant, having 'come upon the town'. If she had been disgraced, the sisters would not even have been able to find positions as governesses, presumably.

I expect the Bennets didn't think to try and marry a daughter off to Mr Collins initially partly due to anger that he would get their estate and partly because they hadn't given up hope of having a son. From memory the book said they still hoped for a son for many years after Lydia was born and Lydia was only 15.

I also think Mrs Bennet wanted to 'save' Jane for a better marriage than Mr Collins i.e. she was the prettiest so Mrs B was hoping she would have the best hope of marrying well. If they'd had the idea that they should wed a daughter to him before I think Mrs B wouldn't have chosen Jane for the task if she could avoid it.

It's a shame that Mrs B chose Lizzy when she advised Mr Collins that Jane was soon to be engaged - if she could have persuaded him of the value of Mary I think Mary would have married him, I think she was a bit like Charlotte Lucas in terms of her awareness of her prospects and may have taken an offer from him - her focus on her accomplishments suggested she knew that was her strength as she couldn't rely on her looks. I also expect that with four pretty sisters that she was never that 'plain' anyway, just not as pretty and confident as the others.

Yes, I thought that too about Mary. I think she would have married Mr Collins. But I think Charlotte Lucas was a better match for him. She was mature enough to see what he was like and was able to manage things to her advantage. Encouraging him to spend a lot of time in the garden maintained a happy marriage 🙂

Mr Collins's father was what we'd now call no-contact with the Bennets. Mr Collins jnr felt obliged to prolong the rift while his father was alive and only reached out with 'an olive branch' once he was dead. When he writes to Mr Bennet with his 'olive branch' near the start of P&P that's the first time they've ever heard from him. No doubt if he'd been on the scene earlier, Mrs Bennet would have been scheming for him to marry one of the girls all along. She jumps at the idea as soon as he mentions it.

It's a shame that Mrs B chose Lizzy when she advised Mr Collins that Jane was soon to be engaged - if she could have persuaded him of the value of Mary I think Mary would have married him

Yes, I think Mrs B. says that Mary thought more highly of him than her sisters did, but by that time he'd moved onto Charlotte. A marriage with Mary wouldn't have worked, though - Mary thought too highly of herself to pander to his vanity, and I imagine she'd have offended Lady Catherine within minutes of walking into Rosings. She wouldn't have sat quietly while Lady Catherine boasted about how accomplished Anne was, or would have been if she'd been in better health - she'd have been commandeering their piano to show off.

I've often thought Mary would have been a good match for Mr. C, and would have solved the problem of them all being turfed out!

Can you imagine how insufferable they would have been? Lady Catherine would have made mincemeat of her.

I think Charlotte's pragmatism and maturity equipped her to deal with Lady C.