AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

[coldsunnydays]

In my view, if a man wants to sexually assault a woman, he will find a way to do it. I really think it's neither here nor there whether a changing room is accessible to trans women, and I feel like the real reason why people don't want changing rooms to be accessible to trans women is much more to do with prejudice, misunderstanding and intolerance than a genuine fear of being attacked by a trans woman

No WR this is not true. ALL the women and girls who have been assaulted would not have been assaulted if sex segregated spaces had been maintained. Your argument 'men who want to assault will' essentially and logically leads to us not needing to prevent male sexual violence as it will happen anyway.

I feel you are being dishonest to yourself to pretend that the reason women have concerns is not for the very fact based concern of assault but out of blind prejudice. Many GC women have spent their lives on issues of social justice and equality. It makes no sense to think a group of people with a justice ethos have irrationally taken a dislike to this one group of people, and to such a degree that they are wiilling to lose their jobs and be ostracised. If you stop to think about it, I don't think you could still seriously believe that.

Surely the most obvious explanation, given we can evidence why we have concerns about assault, is because we want to prevent women and girls from male violence.

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

@Whatwouldscullydo

So people are happy to enjoy the benefits of everything women in this board are fighting for but they don't wanna read about it

Sounds about right, what

[ifIwerenotanandroid]

I hope you feel better soon, wildraisins, & that you might return to this topic with a clearer view & a calmer mind.

I hope you will come to understand why saying, "If a man wants to assault a woman, he'll do it anyway so we may as well remove all protections & safeguarding," is grossly offensive & that this policy would introduce a danger we do not currently face.

I'd like to leave you with that thought to ponder, & wish you a better day.

[OvaHere]

But that requires an acceptance that trans women are women - which, in all honesty, is what is really being debated on this thread.

Why should we be forced to believe something that is not true?

[RedKite96]

Not my problem. Women's spaces are for women.

[MayYouLiveInInterestingTimes]

Trans women are not women. That simple statement is not hate. It is fact.

Women are female adult human beings.

Male to female trans people come in a variety of forms, from a feeling in their heads to taking some artificial hormones to genital surgery. None of it magically makes them female.

And why is all the trouble coming from the enforcement of this particular lie, when most trans people are actually female transitioning to male? Why are most trans females transitioning to male?

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

@CaveMum

I think the thing that gets lost (often purposely by those with an agenda) in these debates is that NO ONE IS SAYING TRANSWOMEN ARE MORE OF A THREAT TO WOMEN. What we ARE saying is

A) women are entitled to certain protections based on their biological sex
B) Self ID allows predatory males to abuse laws in order to attack women/children. It’s all well and good saying “no Transwomen wants to attack anyone.” but how are we supposed to tell the difference. They don’t wear badges proclaiming “Fake Trans” in the same way rapists don’t wear badges saying “Rapists”.

Add to this that the current mantra is “acceptance without exception” and we are not allowed to say that there’s a chance that a man might abuse the law or loopholes in order to access vulnerable people. Just like no abusive men ever became priests, or scout leaders or teachers, etc.

👏 👏

[cheeseismydownfall]

Many GC women have spent their lives on issues of social justice and equality. It makes no sense to think a group of people with a justice ethos have irrationally taken a dislike to this one group of people, and to such a degree that they are wiilling to lose their jobs and be ostracised. If you stop to think about it, I don't think you could still seriously believe that.

This. I do not understand how this point is overlooked again, and again.

[Jux]

@wildraisins

I just find threads like this incredibly sad as they show how far we as a society still have to go with gender rights and just raising general awareness and understanding of what trans is and what it means.

I understand.

But I also find threads like this incredibly sad as they show how far we as a society still have to go with regard to our view and treatment of women, and just raising general awareness and understanding of what womanhood is and what it means.

As I am a woman, and have been fighting that fight since the 60s, I will continue worrying more about women and male violence towards women, and well, basically, the men could try sorting themselves out - except 60years tells me they will continue to act just like men, which is something I see so so clearly right now.

[JoodyBlue]

Also, of course there is the orignal question. Why on earth should someone be banned from SM for asking this question? It is a silencing technique and is apparent through our culture currently. Women are not allowed to question. This seems to have been a very swift and effective cultural change.

[CaveMum]

@OvaHere

In my view, if a man wants to sexually assault a woman, he will find a way to do it.

I don't think 'men will rape women anyway so we shouldn't even bother to try and have safeguards' is a compelling argument.

Agreed, as I said upthread it's akin to saying burglars are going to find a way to break in so we might as well not bother locking our doors. The whole point is that we put as many precautions in place as we reasonably can to prevent it from happening.

Safeguarding is exactly the same thing. We can't prevent 100% of attacks from happening but if the measures we put in place (ie not permitting men to use the same intimate spaces as women) prevent 90% of those attacks then they are doing their job.

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

@MichaelMumsnet

Hi all. We've discussed and have reinstated this one in AIBU.
Apols for the confusion and the hokey cokey thread - there was a genuine misunderstanding in our virtual office.

Thank you

[RedDogsBeg]

@OvaHere

In my view, if a man wants to sexually assault a woman, he will find a way to do it.

I don't think 'men will rape women anyway so we shouldn't even bother to try and have safeguards' is a compelling argument.

Me neither.

Should we do away with all safeguarding of children, DBS (or whatever they are now) checks on people who want to work with children because if a peadophile wants to assault children he will find a way to do it?

[DialSquare]

I would also suggest wildraisins read the Transwidows threads then have a long think about why they should be forced to share single sex spaces with their exes.

[coldsunnydays]

In my view, if a man wants to sexually assault a woman, he will find a way to do it. I really think it's neither here nor there whether a changing room is accessible to trans women

I feel like a better way to tackle violent assaults committed by men on women (ALL women), would be to unite with trans women against violence from men in all of its forms

And WR can you not see how contradictory these statements are? On one hand you argue that we can remove the protections women have to prevent sexual assault as men will assault women regardless.
But then you say we should unite to fight sexual assault?

Surely you can see this makes no sense. Having sex segregated spaces is an effective way of preventing assault. You are trying to pretend it isn't because that suits you, not because of facts and evidence..

[HopeMumsnet]

Hi all,
Apologies again for the communications failure that accidentally moved the thread and saw the consequent loss of the poll - we've asked the Tech team to see what they can do to stop that happening in the future but it's too late for that particular poll unfortunately.
We've made some deletions, mostly around contested terminology, and are posting our MN Guidelines for discussion around gender identity and sex in case there are any newer members who haven't come across them yet.
Apologies once again.

[ArabellaScott]

Glad this has been moved back.

YANBU, OP, its frankly frightening that women are not allowed to even ask this question.

[QueenoftheAir]

I feel like the real reason why people don't want changing rooms to be accessible to trans women is much more to do with prejudice, misunderstanding and intolerance than a genuine fear of being attacked by a trans woman.

@wildraisinsYou've had many many women explaining politely to you why they want single-sex accommodations for privacy dignity & safety.

Yet you still prefer to "believe" that the real reason is women's prejudice?

Yes, because women always lie, and "weaponise" their abuse, or manipulate with their feelings, and lie about it, don't they?

Do you actually consider women to be fully human? Because it seems as though you don't. And if you're female, that's possibly some pretty deep internalised misogyny you've got going on there. It can harm you.

[JoodyBlue]

@cheeseismydownfall

Many GC women have spent their lives on issues of social justice and equality. It makes no sense to think a group of people with a justice ethos have irrationally taken a dislike to this one group of people, and to such a degree that they are wiilling to lose their jobs and be ostracised. If you stop to think about it, I don't think you could still seriously believe that.

This. I do not understand how this point is overlooked again, and again.

Yup - this

[ShotgunShack]

YANBU. Asking the question should open a productive conversation. Then those who are able to, can reassure us why eliminating single sex provision is not a problem and articulate their reasoning.

Reasoned and evidenced discussion that ensures we are all working together to maintain safety and dignity for all.

The fact that Twitter is banning people (women) for even asking the question, rather makes me suspicious that there are no satisfactory answers and no good reasons. I’d love to be proven wrong.

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

Wild I'm sorry you're not feeling great, it is indeed a crappy time. I hope you get some rest and come back again.

I think you're involved in a really important discussion and because the subject is affecting women and girls now many of us are pushing back. And we won't do it quietly and we won't go back in our box.

So emotions run high.

[ifIwerenotanandroid]

Used a photo because I couldn't quote.

Ladies & gentlemen, we have a new Staniland Question! In this case, the DeaconBoo Question.

How many others are out there? What have we never seen an answer to? What causes otherwise enthuusiastic posters to suddenly remember an engagement elsewhere?

[DuchessHastings]

@dadshere

I haven't seen a trans woman naked. But after all of the operations etc. can you always/reliably tell?

I really have no interest in seeing anyone except my husband naked but I put up with undressing in female shower rooms etc.
I don't want s to see a man or transwoman's penis.

[JoodyBlue]

@HopeMumsnet

Hi all,
Apologies again for the communications failure that accidentally moved the thread and saw the consequent loss of the poll - we've asked the Tech team to see what they can do to stop that happening in the future but it's too late for that particular poll unfortunately.
We've made some deletions, mostly around contested terminology, and are posting our MN Guidelines for discussion around gender identity and sex in case there are any newer members who haven't come across them yet.
Apologies once again.

It is an important thread for discussion @HopeMumsnet. I hope that people who are not familiar with the guidelines will be handled gently and that the thread will not become subject to deletion. There are so few places that mums can discuss this. Mumsnet has been a lifeline to many caring for kids and these issues are pertinent to them.