to think that nowadays it's usually the woman who proposes...

[Radziwill]

...and there should be more honesty about that fact?

On various message boards, I've noticed women saying that they want to get married but don't want to ask. They seem to think it's desperate or pathetic for a woman to propose.

But off the top of my head, I can think of at least three women I know who asked their partner to stage a proposal. They all posted news of their engagements on social media, portraying it as a romantic surprise, when in practical terms they had been the ones to propose. If you ask your partner for a proposal, you are asking him to marry you. Therefore, you are proposing to him!

I also suspect that when couples say that they "just decided" to get married, it's generally code for "she asked". Surely someone must have proposed! They can't have simultaneously said "Shall we get married?" or "Shall we book the venue?"

I hate the fact that even in the 2020s, female socialisation is still so bound up in passivity. Why is it considered domineering if a woman doesn't wait for a man to make decisions about their future? Lesbian couples would never get married if neither of them wanted to propose because they're both women!

There should be less pressure on women to act coy and pretend that all the big decisions were first suggested by the man.

I think most couples discuss it in advance, I don’t think this translates to the woman saying I want to get married so crack on.

We discussed marriage, buying a house etc, in loose terms but the proposal was a total surprise. It wasn’t really a very specific conversation more, yeah we will get married and buy a house kind of thing.

twice a day some woman pops up here saying: "I want to get married, I've been waiting for him to propose for seven years, we've got three kids and I don't work."

And a depressingly high number of times on those threads, the man prefers to split up with his partner and mother of his children and leave her financially in the shit than marry her. And a huge indicator of that was the fact that he never wanted to marry earlier and never proposed, despite knowing it was what she wanted. Despite knowing how it would protect her. That's usually precisely why he wouldn't do it.

This is why so many women prefer to be asked. It's not about being a passive princess who's totally surprised and never saw it coming, it's about wanting the man to prove his genuine willingness and be proactive, because that often is a good indication of his feelings. A lot of men are happy to go with the flow without their own drive, if they're getting benefits from it as it is, but will baulk at legal commitment because, well, they don't want it. For most women, a proposal is proof that he means it and is on board for the right reasons, and that's not unreasonable.

I do find it a bit disingenuous on MN when people pretend that they don't see this (especially if they had a proposal themselves) and argue that wanting to be asked isn't about a show of genuine and willing commitment, but about being a silly princess. And this does go hand in hand with the culture on here not of merely preferring a modest, low-key wedding as many do, but actively sneering at weddings which are absolutely standard for the day and competitive, moralistic simplicity.

OP's point isn't about getting these frustrated, vulnerable and unmarried women to communicate because 99% of the time the guy knows full well what they want. He just hasn't got the decency or courage either to do it or be honest that he won't, and was happy for her to bear all the risk.

@ShirleyPhallus

Not at all *@TwilledSilesia*, we did things rather differently to that but the snobby judgement and bizarre competitiveness on mumsnet to have the most dour, cheapest wedding possible as otherwise anything else is tacky / a sign the marriage will never last etc etc is really boring

And you don’t think that might be related to the million hysterical posts on here either by our about hysterical bridezillas who throw a fit because the bridesmaid has the temerity to get pregnant or refuses to cover her tattoos or has organised the wrong type of hen, or 200 people can’t fly to a childfree destination wedding in Bali so no one loves her, or MIL ruined the day by showing up in a floor-length white Vera Wang and crying through the vows, or insisted on thirty photographs of her family with the bride left out, or the DJ got drunk and played ‘Run For Your Life’ as the first dance?

I don't know any women who proposed - we're all mid / late 30s with some married for 10+ years.

DH proposed to me and it was brilliant.

@Bluntness100

I think most couples discuss it in advance, I don’t think this translates to the woman saying I want to get married so crack on.

We discussed marriage, buying a house etc, in loose terms but the proposal was a total surprise. It wasn’t really a very specific conversation more, yeah we will get married and buy a house kind of thing.

Exactly this. DH was very clear about his feelings and the future, but I had no idea he would propose when he did.

No photos, no one else there, nothing for social media. I loved it.

DH was very clear about his feelings and the future, but I had no idea he would propose when he did.

Yeah, same. We had discussed it, of course we had, but in a "this is where I see us going" way, not an actual explicit agreement. When he proposed, I was surprised in a "oh, he's doing it NOW, that's why we came out here" way, not in a "what, he wants to marry me, I had no clue!" way.

That's how most of them seem to go, I think, and both the men and women seem to prefer it.

On one hand i agree with GeordieGreigsButtButtZoom

But i do think you have to steer your own ship a bit.

In my friendship group there has been:
3 x its been x years we want marriage and kids if there is no ring on my hand in the nexy year i will see this as a sign and will plan accordingly
1 x i wont buy a house together unless we are engaged
1x i am not willing to emigrate for your new job unless we are engaged.
1x i am not having a second child unless we get engaged.

I was clear from quite early on and basically said 2019 is the year i expect to get engaged. We looked at rings in summer and he proposed at christmas. It was an eventful year so assumed he'd propose in 2020 tbh...
I was "surprised" at the event itself but wasnt like "arghhhhh omg i have no idea!!! Waaaaàh"

With benefit of time

The emigration and house marriges are and they were ultimatums

the more general "have a think about what you want" ones and the couple with a baby already (he needed a nudge and didnt realise it was important to her) seem happy. I am also v happy.

The issue I have with people proposing is the lack of preparation. I mean I always roll my eyes when a man says how nervous he is/was to propose because he doesn't/didn't know what she will/would say. I mean, shouldn't people have a hypothetical discussion about marriage first before proposing marriage?

I think you should know if someone is ready for marriage and wants to marry you before you get to that point. The proposal can still be a surprise if you want but only because they didn't realise when it would happen, not that they didn't know it would happen or want it to happen.

I think that's the answer I have to your OP: many men, mainly due to conditioning, will propose if they really want to get married. If they haven't proposed, it usually means they're not there yet. Therefore when a woman proposes (without even having a hypothetical discussion to know if you're both on the same page), there's a higher chance of it being the wrong move because he isn't ready. A man who hasn't proposed isn't typically waiting to be proposed to. He's just not sure/ready/thinking about it much. Even if he says yes, it's likely it's because he's been put on the spot. Of course, this isn't every man.

But when a man proposes, there is a higher chance of it being the right move because as you've said, women tend to wait to be proposed to and many would want to marry. Also generally speaking.

So I think it's really about communication in a relationship. If you cannot have the marriage talk, atleast hypothetically, to make sure you're on the same page, you shouldn't be thinking of proposing, regardless of sex. If you could and have, it's easier to propose, regardless of sex, because you'd know the answer before hand. There'd be no risk of rejection, especially for women.

My husband proposed to me. Beforehand we talked about what we wanted in the future and both said we wanted marriage. I didn't consider myself engaged until he asked me with the ring. I think most couples do discuss it, it would be weird if you didn't know where your relationship was heading and a proposal came completey out the blue.

@Kilcaple that sounds like a great wedding (at least for the guests)! I have been locked down for too long - I need someone else's wedding drama in my life.

As for OP - I think people are misunderstanding your post by saying "no the men always propose" and then going on to confirm what you said! If you define proposal as initiating the discussion about marriage, I bet you're right that more women propose than men these days.

If you define proposal as initiating the discussion about marriage,

But that's not a proposal. It's a discussion. If OP meant that most couples have a discussion before a proposal, why not just say that?

I wouldn't personally call a discussion about marriage 'a proposal'.

Unless the discussion is framed as a proposal, in which case, it's more a proposal than a discussion about a possible future (which I think is best to be had first, to avoid disappointment).

I agree far to many women get het up about not being married yet have already had the babies and got the house. If he wanted marriage he would of done in between any of those huge things

If you want to be married at least get engaged before you buy the house or have babies together.

I also agree men don’t go though life expecting to be proposed to so they are not waiting for it they are not doing it because they don’t want to or it hasn’t actually crossed their mind to get married, because life is nice and comfy with the children and house already done so what’s the point now.

Anyway, if it really is mostly women who propose once you change the definition of "proposal" (and for the sake of argument, let's pretend that it is)... then presumably that means women are taking the wheel and being proactive and not sitting around waiting for men, if you're going to look at it that way. So...what's the problem?

I asked DH if we could get married yet for at least a year before he actually proposed. It became a running joke and no secret was ever made of it. In the end, his 'proposal' was a surprise because we'd joked about it for so long. I had told him to get on with it though!

@thepeopleversuswork

ShirleyPhallus

How is wanting to have a cheap and low-key wedding snobby?

I mean, that’s not remotely what I said at all but sure.

Have whatever wedding you want. But accept that a cheap and low key wedding isn’t a better wedding or makes anyone a better person than having a bigger celebration. There is a lot of snobbery on here about people who have bigger weddings and suggestions that it’s more likely to lead to divorce.

I think there is a general discussion in most relationships about future plans before a proposal.
It is rarely a complete surprise in R.L.
I only know one couple where she proposed she used the leap year to do it.
The majority go for the traditional proposal.

@ShirleyPhallus, this big 2014 study disagrees:

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2501480

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/wedding-cost-marriage-divorce-ring-how-much-price-study-a8435646.html

I don't think most women propose.
I "proposed" with "Let's get married then" "ok".
We are not the most romantic couple😂

Agree with some pps. Women don't propose but they more likely bring the idea up for him to do.

I told my DP I wouldn’t move in with him without a ring on my finger and plan to set a date. He then proposed shortly after, but it wasn’t a grand romantic gesture, so you could say I proposed.

I don’t think it matters how it came about - we both want to get married, so we’re going to! 🙂

GeordieGreigsButtButtZoom

"This is why so many women prefer to be asked. It's not about being a passive princess who's totally surprised and never saw it coming, it's about wanting the man to prove his genuine willingness and be proactive, because that often is a good indication of his feelings."

I understand what you're getting at but I don't think waiting for a proposal is the answer to this.

It reinforces the idea that the man is calling all the shots and will allow him to think that he can string the woman along more or less indefinitely with lots of waffle about the "proposal".

The man who spontaneously springs a surprise on his OH complete with dinner at moonlight, knee proposal and expensive diamond ring is largely a myth anyway: when men do things like this in the vast majority of cases its because they've been nagged to within an inch of their life to do so for years beforehand. They just don't care about it that much and honestly they are right not to, it's a complete red herring.

I'd agree that its great for a man to express proactive desire to get married and crack on with it and certainly one who endlessly kicks it down the road is a red flag. But in my experience men tend to be more pragmatic than women about marriage anyway and realise is essentially a contractual matter. In the sorts of situations we're describing here (where the man out-earns the woman) marriage is far more valuable to the woman than it is to the man and the man is right to be apprehensive about it. So its in the woman's best interests to make sure she's had the conversation about it early and clearly. It's just basic due diligence.

I'd agree that its great for a man to express proactive desire to get married and crack on with it and certainly one who endlessly kicks it down the road is a red flag. But in my experience men tend to be more pragmatic than women about marriage anyway and realise is essentially a contractual matter. In the sorts of situations we're describing here (where the man out-earns the woman) marriage is far more valuable to the woman than it is to the man and the man is right to be apprehensive about it. So its in the woman's best interests to make sure she's had the conversation about it early and clearly. It's just basic due diligence.

I agree with this.

I understand what you're getting at but I don't think waiting for a proposal is the answer to this.

I suppose it depends on how long you've been waiting and how much longer you're prepared to wait. Certainly you should be willing to walk away if he's not going to give you the commitment you're looking for, not sit around forever.

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with having an honest discussion with a man who's dragging his feet, or even giving a deadline if if comes to that...but I do understand why women don't want to. It does seem to defeat the purpose of him proving he's serious and genuine about it. I would struggle with it.

But that's when you have to be prepared to use your agency and walk away. You don't have to wait around, you can get up and leave.

It's just striking (and saddening) how many of the "he won't propose" threads end with the woman finally forcing the issue and it turns out he'd rather lose her and living full time with his kids than legally commit. But his lack of proposal much earlier was a sign...

ShirleyPhallus

"accept that a cheap and low key wedding isn’t a better wedding or makes anyone a better person than having a bigger celebration. There is a lot of snobbery on here about people who have bigger weddings and suggestions that it’s more likely to lead to divorce."

I don't think anyone's saying that a cheap wedding is likely to be more durable than an expensive one. The point is that a lot of (mainly women) fixate on the wedding as opposed to the marriage and go down a rabbit hole of obsessing about the trimmings of the wedding: bridesmaid's dresses and table settings etc. You see it on here on a daily basis. See also obsession about the proposal, the rings etc.

A lot of this is a deflection tactic from the real substance which is whether the couple is compatible and whether the marriage has been properly planned.

It's not that an expensive wedding is any more likely to fail than a cheap one: its that an expensive wedding is a huge waste of money and energy if the basic underpinning of a relationship are not sound.

Quite often when you get these tales of woe from someone who hasn't been proposed to the OH's get-out-of-jail-free card is that he wants to be the one to propose and he wants to do it romantically etc. This suggests that he usually doesn't really want to get married because he realises it isn't in his best interests. Yet instead of confronting this the women tend to fixate on what the ring is going to look like and how he is going to propose etc.

It's symptomatic of a broader issue we have whereby we get so wrapped up in the culture of weddings for their own sake that we forget about the marriage and the relationship.