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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think removing certain statues and renaming certain street names is not erasing our history?

329 replies

chomalungma · 24/01/2021 13:16

It's just not celebrating people who are seen as controversial.
People can still learn about these people in books.
In films
At school.

It's just that they aren't being celebrated by having public recognition and the honour of a statue or a street name.

I would link to a story - but there would be so many of them as the Government (and certain media organisations) seem to think that it's a war on our history.

I guess a lot of it is down to the person being celebrated. And whether that celebration is still deemed 'worthy' 100s of years later.

Statues have been removed in the past for a range of reasons. I wonder how many of the Victorian statues will still be up in 200 years time?

OP posts:
Changethetoner · 24/01/2021 13:20

I agree. It's not erasing history, because the history remains, nothing will ever change what happened. But we can change what we celebrate - and if that means no longer celebrating people who benefitted from the Slave Trade (for example) then that is a good thing.

So I support changing names of buildings or streets, and removing statues, if these are no longer representative of things worthy of our honour.

LAgeDeRaisin · 24/01/2021 13:22

I don't think removed altogether; it might be better to have them in a museum with free access to the public.

SionnachRua · 24/01/2021 13:24

100% agree. Times move on, values change and people worthy of glorifying in the past suddenly aren't worth that any more. It's hardly like you're going to offend them either is it?

Original poster
chomalungma · 24/01/2021 13:24

I have lost count of the number of statues in Central London especially along the Embankment near the Government buildings.

OP posts:
Godimabitch · 24/01/2021 13:27

I agree. We shouldn't be proud of it or celebrate it. Alot of our history is appalling.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 24/01/2021 13:28

Given the amount of attention anyone ever seems to pay to any statue until they want it removed, I'd say thinking of people as celebrating them isn't entirely accurate: more like just "having to walk round them".

I tried it once: I asked a lot of people in a place I lived who was the statue in the middle of the square. Nobody had the faintest idea. And when told it was William III, they said "which one was he?" I don't think him being in a toga helped, mind.

SionnachRua · 24/01/2021 13:29

Personally I'd start with the Cromwell statue. Ethnic cleanser extraordinaire.

Moirarose2021 · 24/01/2021 13:31

I worry that we impose our 2021 values on the future, as they say the past is a foreign country. A small amount may need to be moved for example into a museum but we should not be destroying them

Original poster
chomalungma · 24/01/2021 13:34

@Moirarose2021

I worry that we impose our 2021 values on the future, as they say the past is a foreign country. A small amount may need to be moved for example into a museum but we should not be destroying them
Do we need to have them on public display?

What is the purpose of a statue or a naming a street after someone?

OP posts:
Chalkcheese · 24/01/2021 13:38

Thing is we aren't destroying history, whether we keep them as They are, put them in museums or destroy them, all will be a response to the 2020 race riots. Both the riots themselves and the response will one day will be history.

Moirarose2021 · 24/01/2021 13:39

Well they are already there, I am not advocating naming streets after historic figures or erecting statues but do wonder about the benefit of removing those that are already there. Values change and we can learn and debate them but we can't change what has happened.

TwilledSilesia · 24/01/2021 13:43

@Moirarose2021

I worry that we impose our 2021 values on the future, as they say the past is a foreign country. A small amount may need to be moved for example into a museum but we should not be destroying them
Well, when a society decided to celebrate them by erecting statues to a certain set of men (bar the occasional queen and all-purpose female figure representing Peace, Victory, Justice or whatever), they were imposing the values of their time on the future, too. We don’t have to perpetuate it.
MarieLaveau · 24/01/2021 13:43

People can still learn about these people in books.
In films

And if these books, these films, were created by writers and directors that we later discover are racist. Should we burn them?

I think what we see around us are important markers of time that has gone by. Ruins, churches, statues, place names - they were all created with the blood of someone else.

Should Dublin dismantle Trinity College?

Original poster
chomalungma · 24/01/2021 13:45

@Moirarose2021

Well they are already there, I am not advocating naming streets after historic figures or erecting statues but do wonder about the benefit of removing those that are already there. Values change and we can learn and debate them but we can't change what has happened.
Maybe because people whose ancestors were affected by the historic figure don't want to see them still honoured in a modern world?
OP posts:
Original poster
chomalungma · 24/01/2021 13:46

And if these books, these films, were created by writers and directors that we later discover are racist. Should we burn them

There is a difference between openly having statues and names on display and burning books and destroying films.

One is honouring people
One is destroying things.

OP posts:
MissyB1 · 24/01/2021 13:50

Where will it all end though, I mean precisely how far do you want to go? Oh and plenty of corrupt people around these days too of course. If any of them have built anything or had something named after them shall we destroy that too?
It’s not just the odd statue or street sign OP that’s naive. It would be a full time job keeping up with what names / buildings/ statues or monuments were considered “worthy”. And there would be constant demolition going on forever more.....

Seriously I don’t see the point.

Original poster
chomalungma · 24/01/2021 13:51

And if these books, these films, were created by writers and directors that we later discover are racist. Should we burn them

Interesting.

Jimmy Saville's TV appearances haven't been destroyed. They just aren't celebrated.

Same for Rolf Harris. His music hasn't been destroyed. But people don't play it.

I am sure that if there had been a statue of these people, then it would have been removed.

OP posts:
peak2021 · 24/01/2021 13:53

My view is that there are some statues which should be moved from prominent places to museums and the reasons why they have been moved be available for all to read. So they are not honoured.

The observation about Oliver Cromwell is well made and I agree he is one of the worst leaders in our history. One of the few whose actions or inactions cost more lives than Boris Johnson's have.

omygoditsearly · 24/01/2021 13:55

I think it's a double edged sword. Generally I would rather keep them but append a plaque that explains the history of person, event or organisation being referenced alongg with a full rejection of the activity that we now know to be wrong. I think this both protects history and cements change for the better in our society.

SarahAndQuack · 24/01/2021 13:59

Should Dublin dismantle Trinity College?

We can only live in hope. Wink

I think the problem with saying we shouldn't destroy statues but keep them in museums is that it takes money. Museums are already struggling and the people who work in them are often really badly paid considering how qualified they have to be.

I don't think taking down old statues is the same as burning books. It's more like a library accepting that the dog-eared 30-year-old paperback no one has borrowed for ten years, is ready for the reject pile.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/01/2021 13:59

What is the purpose of a statue or a naming a street after someone Really?

At the time to be celebrated.

Nowadays... maybe the other axiom about not forgetting!

If we cleanse our living environment of any bit of the past any cohort feels unfcomfortable with what do you think we will end up with?

There are a number of words currently being remodelled to meet some never before known definition. They have, snce the 90s, had their meaning back engineered to meet someone's agenda.

And you know where that leads....

user194729573 · 24/01/2021 14:02

We seem happy to obliterate archaeological sites in order to build railways, roads, homes, and businesses.

We accept agricultural practices destroying archaeological evidence.

We dig up historic graves and put human remains on display in museums.

We leave women and other oppressed peoples out of our history books.

That's allowed to happen every day without remark or protests of "destroying history". But we move statues and celebrations of people whose values no longer align with our own out of our public spaces and that's "destruction" ?

Nah, it's just people feeling their power challenged.

user194729573 · 24/01/2021 14:04

Modifying the landscape people live in is a way to assert power. Whether that's through monuments, statues or naming.

It has always changed all the time, and should change all the time to reflect who we are now and our values.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/01/2021 14:05

We seem happy to obliterate archaeological sites in order to build railways, roads, homes, and businesses. Not quite...

We accept agricultural practices destroying archaeological evidence. Again, not quite

We dig up historic graves and put human remains on display in museums. yes... and....

We leave women and other oppressed peoples out of our history books. But we are now adding them.

Nah, it's just people feeling their power challenged. Who? The magical "Them"?

That's all a bit too mixed up and inaccurate to hold water as an argument!

Moorhens · 24/01/2021 14:06

I agree about statues.

Statues are for people who are celebrated so I'm not sure why people have decided that statues are for education of important historical figures.

You don't see many statues of people not considered good eg Hitler, bad leaders, people that lead terrorist attacks etc.

Statues have always been put up in celebration then torn down when the person is not deemed worthy