to think removing certain statues and renaming certain street names is not erasing our history?

[chomalungma]

It's just not celebrating people who are seen as controversial.
People can still learn about these people in books.
In films
At school.

It's just that they aren't being celebrated by having public recognition and the honour of a statue or a street name.

I would link to a story - but there would be so many of them as the Government (and certain media organisations) seem to think that it's a war on our history.

I guess a lot of it is down to the person being celebrated. And whether that celebration is still deemed 'worthy' 100s of years later.

Statues have been removed in the past for a range of reasons. I wonder how many of the Victorian statues will still be up in 200 years time?

Yy, this is why I mentioned our school walk around town where they showed us where brutal things happened (we stopped by street signs and monuments at each part of the talk). Some of it was grim and horrible but we were all fascinated and all saying/thinking 'I cannot believe that it used to be okay to do that'. It's stayed in my head for 30 years

True

But what should there be to 'remember it'? A plaque or an art installation to remember the people affected by the person or a statue of the person who carried out the atrocities?

I get your point about visiting places such as the Collosseum. But the statues are part of the place and there is a context to it.

I think that is different to single statues in a public place.

@GCAcademic

Yes funding is an issue. But my grandiose dream aside, I think if a British person started a petition to say National Trust asking them to add slave trade context to any of their displays in historic houses they own that were owned by slave traders. I’m sure they’d divert some of their funds to do that. For example, I know national trust owns Francis Drakes old home Buckland Abbey. Surely they could spend a few hundred £ identifying his role in the slave trade?

The National Trust has actually been doing a huge amount of work to identify their properties' links with the slave trade and with colonialism more generally, and to make this more visible to visitors. They are being slaughtered by the right-wing press and many of their members for doing so. You only have to look at another thread on here from a few days about about colonialism in India to see just how many people think that Britain went around the world magnanimously imparting its blessings to the savages.

That is certainly one opinion about why the national trust is being "slaughtered".

And one take on the colonialism thread.

@chomalungma

Precisely and having taught KS2 the more brutal the person was the more the pupils were interested. Why do you think Horrible Histories are so popular

So do you think we should put up statues of some of history's more controversial figures then in our public spaces?

Hitler maybe (goes all Godwin's Law here)

But we're talking about tearing down statues not putting them up People's historical knowledge in this country is pathetic. I watch a terrible show on just now called 'The Wheel. One of the contestants didn't know anything about Walter Raleigh, William Wallace or Marie Antoinette. She is a medical student.

If previous generations had done the same as we are suggesting, there would be very little to see now

I am sure previous generations did take down statues of people and replace them. But back then, it was certain people with power and privilege who no doubt made the decisions over local statues.

I get your point about visiting places such as the Collosseum. But the statues are part of the place and there is a context to it. A context built by time.

But we're talking about tearing down statues not putting them up

Your argument is that people are interested in brutal history.
Hitler was as brutal as it comes.

So why not put a statue up to him if you think people are interested in brutal history? Surely people would be interested in it?

@sundaysgirls

The problem is who would decide and what would their motives be ? Some statues are obviously of people who were grossly unacceptable but where do you draw the line when it comes to people who were responsible for some good works but also held atrocious views ?

This. People are nuanced. And those views have to be taken in context. Judging people from the past through a 21st century lens is lazy and arrogant. The past is another country, they did things differently there.

In Ireland we got rid of most (if not all) of the British statues, along with a lot of the street names. We replaced them with more appropriate ones. I would argue we know a lot more about our history than British people do about their’s. Removing statues of dodgy people does not erase history.

This. People are nuanced. And those views have to be taken in context. Judging people from the past through a 21st century lens is lazy and arrogant. The past is another country, they did things differently there

Yes, they did.

So why should we still honour them in the 21st century when the statue was erected in the 18th century to honour them at the time?

Should a statue stay up forever?

But back then, it was certain people with power and privilege who no doubt made the decisions over local statues

A lot of them were paid for by public subscription.

Who we put up statues of now is controversial and subject to debate and takes into account the feelings of the local community or the whole country if it is an important statue.

But it is a different issue and process to the removal of past statues.

The existence of a statue in a particular place isn’t just about the history of the person. It tells us a great deal about the attitudes of the society who decided to put that statue there and the power held at the time by who put it there.

I don’t think we even know which statues and street names are particularly controversial. We know some people objected to some statues this Summer in very media attention grabbing ways. That doesn’t mean their feelings are stronger or more worthy of attention than other local communities who may feel deep dislike of their local statues but have been ignored.

My family particularly hate the Bowes Lyon for their treatment of miners and working class people. If we’re going to start removing statues etc I would expect it to be based in democratic processes and local consultation, not what’s fashionable during one pandemic Summer in the media.

We’re not honouring them, simply acknowledging that they’re an integral part of our history.

@VinylDetective

But back then, it was certain people with power and privilege who no doubt made the decisions over local statues

A lot of them were paid for by public subscription.

I was thinking more about whether older ones were kept,

Tomorrow we Scots celebrate the birth of Robert Burns. Generally a terrible philanderer. Should we get rid of his statues and put up ones of Janey Godley just because she wants Scottish independence and called Trump a cunt?

So why should we still honour them in the 21st century when the statue was erected in the 18th century to honour them at the time?

Perhaps we shouldn’t. But have a vote on taking down a statue of Henry VIII and I think you’ll find yourself outvoted. That’s all that matters.

@VinylDetective

We’re not honouring them, simply acknowledging that they’re an integral part of our history.

Well - that's the point, isn't it.

What is the point of a statue?

To honour or to acknowledge they are a part of our history?

Where will it stop? Every statue will be removed because 'someone' will find it offensive.

You can't whitewash over history.

@AStudyinPink

So why should we still honour them in the 21st century when the statue was erected in the 18th century to honour them at the time?

Perhaps we shouldn’t. But have a vote on taking down a statue of Henry VIII and I think you’ll find yourself outvoted. That’s all that matters.

I wonder in what century many of the statues we know will be removed?

@derxa

Tomorrow we Scots celebrate the birth of Robert Burns. Generally a terrible philanderer. Should we get rid of his statues and put up ones of Janey Godley just because she wants Scottish independence and called Trump a cunt?

Oooh! Yes. The dastard!

The shero!

Of course it isn’t.

Many of them will end up in museums, and yes will continued to be read about and studied.

Here is a good article about Glasgow's links to the slave trade.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-52978121

To honour or to acknowledge they are a part of our history? Something else that changes with time, perhaps!

The answer is both, or neither. Depending on who / what it is, sin't it?

I would far rather we focus on putting up statues of the forgotten people of the past. There’s a beautiful statue outside Manchester Piccadilly of soldiers who were blinded. Jarrow has an amazing statue of the Jarrow Marchers.

I’d rather see us remember more of the past that we care about rather than erasing the parts we don’t like.

Bristol’s wealth and buildings will still be built on the slave trade whether you tear the statue down or not.

@wendyleen

Where will it stop? Every statue will be removed because 'someone' will find it offensive.

You can't whitewash over history.

Do you think that plaques should be added to contextualise the person so people learn the real history of the person instead of the history that they may have learnt at school which probably did 'whitewash' their history?

I agree @VinylDetective

British history is enormously complex too. We've been invaded repeatedly and different heroes have risen and been commemorated (when you can be certain that a huge group of contempory people would've seen them as the antichrist).

We can't pretend that British history is noble. It's brutal, bloody and divisive. Our public commemorations have evolved over centuries, millenia and I don't want any group here in 2021 deciding what's okay and what isn't. That smacks of rewriting the history books.

It happened and it all contributed to the story of where we are today for good or for ill. I really think that we need to step back from this urge to tear things down.