to think removing certain statues and renaming certain street names is not erasing our history?

[chomalungma]

It's just not celebrating people who are seen as controversial.
People can still learn about these people in books.
In films
At school.

It's just that they aren't being celebrated by having public recognition and the honour of a statue or a street name.

I would link to a story - but there would be so many of them as the Government (and certain media organisations) seem to think that it's a war on our history.

I guess a lot of it is down to the person being celebrated. And whether that celebration is still deemed 'worthy' 100s of years later.

Statues have been removed in the past for a range of reasons. I wonder how many of the Victorian statues will still be up in 200 years time?

... and get pissed on koumiss, obviously

Surely it is the content of the book not who is in it that determines whether it’s apologist work or making sure history is remembered and recorded accurately as possible.
It’s important to still have books on those people and their actions.

I think you are right about this. Books and films play an important role in increasing awareness of the past. It is a bit of a double edged sword in the case of fiction over non fiction books and documentaries (though those also have bias) as they can spread myths and inaccuracies but I still think they are needed because a lot of people just aren't interested in 'school history' but are interested in books and films.

Drake should not be put on a pedestal for starting the British slave trade; its abhorrent.

Don’t forget he did those voyages with his cousin Sir John Hawkins whose family crest showed a bound slave.

I’m in favour of numerous slavery museums where these mens portraits can be displayed in a hall of shame within it. Of course most of museum should be dedicated to the victims. Similar to the Holocaust museums that dot the world.

Drake should not be put on a pedestal for starting the British slave trade; its abhorrent. But he didn't start the slave trade

His cousin started the British slave trade...

I think what does need to stop are the removal of comfort women statues in various countries. These statues were erected to commemorate and honour the women that the Japanese took as sex slaves in Korea, China, Indonesia and Singapore. But Japan has been pressuring to have these taken down! The one in Berlin is still in danger of being taken down. To me, that is wrong. Those aren’t the statues we should be allowing to be removed.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Drake should not be put on a pedestal for starting the British slave trade; its abhorrent.

Don’t forget he did those voyages with his cousin Sir John Hawkins whose family crest showed a bound slave.

I’m in favour of numerous slavery museums where these mens portraits can be displayed in a hall of shame within it. Of course most of museum should be dedicated to the victims. Similar to the Holocaust museums that dot the world.

The problem with this (and I agree with you!) is that there isn't enough funding for museum to do this especially as there are other museums that would be great too. It is why I get annoyed when people imply arts and culture are not worth funding. They may not serve an immediate need but they are fundamental to understanding how we are as a society and making sense of that.

I would love there to be wider understanding that history had always been used to create identities (individual, community, national). Revising the way history is presented by pointing that out should be welcomed because it gives us new perspectives outside those identities. But we need to recognise that we will be doing the same thing (something academic historians are quite conscious of these days). It should be that hard a concept: I mean at it's core, it's your ex who selects what to say about the break up to appear in the best light but scaled up (I am being a bit flippant there but there is some truth in it!)

Nobody would think it reasonable to put up a new statue to Edward Colston today. So if you wouldn't put a new statue what justification is there for keeping an old statue, other than a knee-jerk resistance to change?

Yes! They need to stay. And the current lies of the Japanese government, trying to deny the past lies, need to be documented!

@NotDavidTennant

Nobody would think it reasonable to put up a new statue to Edward Colston today. So if you wouldn't put a new statue what justification is there for keeping an old statue, other than a knee-jerk resistance to change?

The same could be said for almost every statue and very many paintings etc.

I disagree. This world is going crazy

@scatterolight "Maybe people's whose ancestors were affected need to mind their own business? I don't go to France and demand they take down their statues of Napoleon or William the Conqueror."

Why are you comparing you demanding France take a statue down to people in the UK feeling like a statue in the UK isn't appropriate to be glorified and on display in the public realm?

@terrywynne
Yes funding is an issue. But my grandiose dream aside, I think if a British person started a petition to say National Trust asking them to add slave trade context to any of their displays in historic houses they own that were owned by slave traders. I’m sure they’d divert some of their funds to do that. For example, I know national trust owns Francis Drakes old home Buckland Abbey. Surely they could spend a few hundred £ identifying his role in the slave trade?

@CuriousaboutSamphire
Yes! We need to fight to keep some statues. Not sure how when it’s happening outside our countries. But we can try and make sure similar does happen here.

The same could be said for almost every statue and very many paintings etc.

No it couldn't. Lots of statues exist of people that we would still want to honour today.

@NotDavidTennant

The same could be said for almost every statue and very many paintings etc.

No it couldn't. Lots of statues exist of people that we would still want to honour today.

Want to honour yes, but go to the trouble of commissioning a statue??

The way I see it is this. The statues were put there in times gone by to honour whoever it was. At the time, it is unlikely that it would purposely have been put there specifically to glorify slavery or racism, and if that was the person's sole achievement, fair enough. Remove it and archive it somewhere.

Centuries later, can we not look simply look at the others as we would any other works of art, and just admire the skill of the artists who created them?

The problem is who would decide and what would their motives be ? Some statues are obviously of people who were grossly unacceptable but where do you draw the line when it comes to people who were responsible for some good works but also held atrocious views ?

Take Cheltenham

The Minotaur and the Hare - great bit of street furniture. I was there the year there were others and they decided to keep this one. There's no relevance to Cheltenham... nothing... would anyone commission it now? They didn't keep the race horses (possibly because their tails kept getting nicked)

Boer War Memorial - in the Long Garden... well they wanted to call it the Diana Garden at one point, she'd never been here! But few know it is a Boer War memorial... would they put that up now?

Edward Wilson - OK, maybe

Gustav Holst - Some music lovers perhaps

The Gordon Lamp - should anyone even know that is what it is...

Have a look at your own town and decide yes / no. It's quite eye opening!

VinylDetective
It amused me to see one council deciding to get rid of Nelson Road - get over it and say it’s to commemorate Mandela, not Horatio, job done.

It amused me when a very vocal body of students in Bristol started to demand that a random street in the city centre should be re-named Nelson Street after Mandela, having apparently never noticed that there was already a Nelson Street right by the middle of the Centre -- which at that time had on it the Magistrate's Court and the Central Police Station. (When this was pointed out, they renamed the Mars Bar at the Union the Mandela Bar instead.)

Want to honour yes, but go to the trouble of commissioning a statue??

Okay, pedant, if the public would oppose the creation of a new statue of a particular person then there should be a presumption that we get rid of an existing statue of the same person (but this presumption could be over-ruled if the statue itself had some particular cultural or artistic significance that merited its preservation).

It's stupid to even talk about 'erasing history', it can't be done! The current pick and mix attitide to history is totally pathetic.

Pedant? OK!! But I was responding to your suggestion about a new statue

But thank you for gving me the idea to look at Cheltenham's street furniture. It was thought provoking!

But I forgot the bicycle racks that are supposed to be ballerinas at the bar! Ludicrous. And again, bugger all to do with Cheltenham!

At least Gloucester's bollards are threaded needles!

I think that statues of controversial figures should come down.

Who decides?

Taking down statues is disgraceful.
Burning books are deleting or blocking online history is disgraceful.
The university with a slave trader statue outside was built with his money. He set up a scholarship fund to assist bright and black students to get a degree there. I saw an article from a black graduate (paid for by the scholarship) demanding that the statue is removed. They weren't so principled about where their bursary comes from.

Oh, that's easy. If more than one person says a statue is controversial, that means it is -- that's the definition of a controversy, that two sides don't agree about something.

So if I and another person say Mumsnet is a nest of vipers and you and another person disagree, that's a controversy and Mumsnet should be closed.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Oh, that's easy. If more than one person says a statue is controversial, that means it is -- that's the definition of a controversy, that two sides don't agree about something.

So if I and another person say Mumsnet is a nest of vipers and you and another person disagree, that's a controversy and Mumsnet should be closed.

Mic drop

Close the thread - and forum