to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

''Then put your child in a different school or get them to sit out of these activities.''
Rebelmum - that is Seeker's point. She has deliberately avoided sending her child to the most local school because it is a faith school and has taken steps to get her into a non-faith ie normal state primary but still the child gets fed the faith stuff. She can't do anything else. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that a normal state primary will not be teaching christianity as fact.

I haven't read all of this, so if I'm repeating an earlier comment I apologise.

A lot of people's comments seem to be along the lines of "If you don't like the religious education your children receive then feel free to refute it at home". But this doesn't take into account how children react to something given to them as "fact". They BELIEVE it - in a complete and unquestioning way. If this goes against their parents' beliefs then that can only cause problems.

We all question our beliefs later on in life, but not as a child. It is very difficult trying to explain that although 99% of the knowledge they are given at school is fact, the other bit is to be questioned. It can be very confusing.

I don't want to "wipe out anybody's faith" I am happy for my ds to be in a Nativity play. I am happy for him to learn about Christianity. And I know that he could be "excused assembly" But I don't see why he can't be a full member of the school community because I don't want him to close his eyes and pray to a God that I don't believe in, is not part of our family's belief system and which he is not old enough to decide whether he believes in. I can't see why Christians wouls want that sort of lip service!

And as for "you can refute it at home", why can't Christians instil their faith into their children at home? Why does my child have to unlearn something? If the school had a neutral position "some people believe....." then parents of all faiths and none can teach whatever they like at home.

Spiritualknot, when it comes to church wedding,s whether or not the marital couple are churchgoers is one thing but there is certainly no obligation for wedding guests to be christians unless you belong to some sort of completley head-banging sect that forbids all contact with unbelievers.

Ruty: though I haven't read any of Bonhoffer's books, but I have read many books by people with varying belief systems (in a very off-topic moment I will confess to being a huge fan of Phil Rickman's Deliverance mysteries). Do you only read books by people you agree with?

I also fail to see what Bonhoffer's beliefs and indeed his actions have to do with whether or not Hitler was religious. And Hitler was religious - belief in occult and magic stuff is surely a religion by any meaningful definition of the word.

the Hitler/Stalin atheist thing is nonsensical and makes my blood boil tbh.
it is very insulting to link me with them because we are all "non-believers" (and wrong but never mind)

Well, precisely. It's never helpful or accurate to lump people together under such broad terms. Hitler + Harpsi = non-religious makes as much sense as SueBaroo + Mother Theresa = religious. It's cobblers and deeply unhelpful (and in my example so far wide of the mark it's a wonder it's in the same universe)

This has turned into a rather scatter-shot short of thread now, hasn't it?

Sue - scattershot, apart from me banging on like Jeremy Paxman. One-Issue-Seeker, they call me!

seeker, you've been answered on a number of occasions, though. You are unimpressed by the majority of the for arguments, and I don't blame you. I'm not sure what else you want people to say, really.

As much as I understand your frustration, and I agree with you, it us the current state of affairs. You have my sympathy and my vote should these issues ever become something I could vote on, but aside from that there's not a lot to say.

Sue - thank you. I've noticed all through this thread that I agree with a lot of what you say (apart for the bit about accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour, obviously!). Strange that you agree with me about the school prayers when others without your convictions don't.
See you on another thread soon, I hope!

yeah school and religeon shouldnt mix
tis the parents responsablity

however i argue that healthy eating, excersice, music lessons, sex education are also paretnal responsability

seeker, I just wanted to add that I do understand your position about your dc getting religion where it shouldn't be (ie a non-faith school). In principle, you are right to complain about something that is unexpected and, in your case, unwanted. In practice though, I don't think the problem is a big one, because I don't think introducing religion is a bad thing necessarily, when the message is moderate and does not encourage any kind of fundamentalism. Some aspects of religion are very good IMO, and prayer is one of them. Prayer is just one way of meditating or quiet time, only you talk to someone else as opposed to yourself. And more importantly, remember that no-one can force anyone else to pray: I sat many hours in my school chapel pretending to pray but really thinking about my exams, my friends, my plans for that friday, even drawing sketches of the altar .
I just want you to see the positive side of it :-)

Bonitamia: introducing religion in schools is not a good thing because it's starting from the basic assumption that belief in imaginary beings is compulsory and universal, when it isn't.
With prayers I have no problem with kids being given an opportunity to pray, but would be worried if they were obliged to bow their heads or whatever, should they not want to. (in humanist ceremonies the celebrants will sometimes announce a moment of 'quiet reflection' if there are likely to be guests who want to pray silently). And when I was at school, prayers was an excellent opportunity for quietly finishing one's homework or reading the latest Jackie if you were in the back row...

SOrry, Harpsichord, colour me stupid, but in which message were you linked with Hitler and Stalin?

rofl at that post

I agree with the stance that this country is Protestant Christian therefore state schools will be Protestant Christian, non-denominational or not.

I think you need the ruling that France has adopted whereby none of the schools have any religious affiliation whatsoever and all religious artifacts or clothing must be removed from children or they are sent home. Private schools are catholic.

Although I do think you are all just closet catholics wanting to get out and embrace the world!

I forgive you all your atheism

"this country is Protestant Christian therefore state schools will be Protestant Christian, non-denominational or not. "

nope. Just doesn't follow. We are also a democratic country and I haven't noticed schools being particularly democratic. We have a monarchy but dont require kids to sing God Save The Queen.

They do at dd's school.

I was trying to be helpful to seeker. To help her understand that we all have things told to our kids and have rituals forced down their throats that we don't agree with at some point. It's not just a religious thing, it's a political thing, it's a cultural thing, it's an authoritarian thing.

Unfortunately we live in a country with a Monarchy and the Queen is the head of the CofE Church, our PMs are usually all CofE. This country is very Protestant. Not being of any particular denomination doesn't mean it won't be Christian, it just means that it's not affiliated to any one kind of Christian. It's worship is broad, not catholic or evangelical or baptist, but a bit of everything.

Some schools are more religious than others and that decision is the Head's. Unless you take it up with the Head or exclude there isn't that much you can do. Not that I don't have sympathy, I do, which is what my comparison with FC was trying to do, to make you see that this kind of thing happens to us all at some point, on some level.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do anything about that, I'm just explaining why it is like it is.

OK - I swore that I wouldn't post gain, but I can't help myself.

Tell me one other thing that children have to do at school in order to be a full member of the school community that equates with being obliged to take part in a religious ritual.

yes ELiza possibly you are stupid
because I didn't say that, I was answering Unquietdad's post further down referring to the Dawkins conversation/interview further down. I never mentioned any message on here, and I don't know why you would think that really. perhaps I should have said : UnquietDad etc

By UnquietDad on Tue 06-Nov-07 10:37:31
As Prof Dawkins himself (!) said in a TV interview once - when challenged that Hitler and Stalin, arguably the two most evil men in recent history, were both atheists - "Well, they both had moustaches. You may as well argue that proves people are inherently evil when they have facial hair." (I paraphrase, but it was along those lines.)

hope that clarifies

seeker would sexual education equate? as one can remove your child from that. and when in secondary education it would rather becuase part of the pervading culture and canteen gossip.

I don't quite think it does, custardo. Sex education would equate more with RE lessons than religious practice. (No-ones arguing against factual RE.) Unless SE lessons include practicals nowadays.... ... no, I don't think we should persue this analogy!

Sex education would PERHAPS count if the person teaching it had a particular moral viewpoint that was presented as the ONLY one.

yes perhaps, if the sex education consisted of being told that you must only have sex within marriage, that anything else is sinful and that homosexuality is evil.

I have recently blown my top over religion in school. (hope no one in RL will come on here as they will guess who I am and I don't want to be "outed" at school!)
My ds goes to a "community" school, supposedly non religious and you can exclude your child etc - but I don't see why he should be left out of assemblies etc.
DP doesn't believe in god, I am now a pagan, as I can accept that lifestyle and values. I don't believe everything that I read about it or hear from other pagans - I have "pick and mix" beliefs about how and why we are on this planet etc. I know very little of other religions as I was never taught about them, and never made time to find out about them, (apart from paganism obviously and the "enforced" christianity when I was younger) but would like to know about them purely for knowledge.

DS is in yr 1 now and 3 weeks into the term came home saying "god made the world" and we have to believe in him because Mrs X (the teaching asst) says so. I flipped!!
After some digging about their policies with someone else who works there, apparently they are told "some people believe that god made it", and they are taught different religions, but I don't buy that for a minute, as he was so adamant that he had to believe it and it's not just a story.
2 weeks later he came home with a bible. Yes, very nice for him to get a present, but could he not have a Koran to read or something as well??
He has left it with "someone I can't mention on here just in case!", and hasn't asked about it - afaik he hasn't been reading it, but am now thinking maybe I should tell him to fetch it back here to stop anyone else seeing him reading it there and telling him it's all true without my knowledge!!

I wanted to go to the school (firstly to throttle the TA) and suggest I give a lecture to the kids on how to "ask the Goddess for protection before doing spells" or as Seeker said, do something along the lines of invoking/circle castings, to see how the teachers reacted to that, but dp said absolutely not!! But if they were so liberal, surely they wouldn't mind???
I have no idea how the other families who are pagans/hindus/muslim etc have reacted yet.

No celebrations have gone on of the origins of Halloween/Samhain, or Diwali which I assume was recently due to all the H & S stuff about candle safety in papers. Blank looks when I asked if he had been learning about them.
If he had come home with a lantern for Diwali, or had learnt about Halloween, Equinoxes and seasons etc, I would believe that he is being taught about all religions - obviously not!!
I am mad about it because I was told as a child I was "wicked" to question Christianity - I never believed in it at all - I wanted proof which no one can give me. I was forced into hearing about it at school and home, sent to Sunday school and Brownies/guides, so had no choice but to hear it. Imagine my delight when I discovered there WAS other things to believe in!!
Now though, my kids don't have a choice in hearing it, and they won't get a balanced view of what different people believe and why. They believe their teacher is right so I am going to have to hunt down some nice stories from other religions very fast to stop him being brainwashed. GRR!! Can't think of any other way round it without inflicting my own beliefs onto DS, which would make me as bad as the school.
I feel forced into accepting what they are doing and unable to say anything for fear of being labelled a "troublemaker", or "not letting my child join in" etc.
DP says though if he finds out they are lying about what they are teaching, then he will be going down there himself, but if it came down to it he would probably chicken out.

Oh, OK, Harpsichord, I was just worried that one of my posts had offended you personally... I think these discussions go better when they're not targeted personally.

Now, where are those anti-stupid pills?