to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

I've heard of Dietrich Bonhoffer - and I have read him. Where did anyone say that atheists don't read books by religions people? That is a bit silly, ruty, if you don't mind me saying so!

ruty, Hitler was a christian (roman catholic).

Had to laugh at the idea of burning books written by religious folk. Only a religious person would think of ever doing that sort of thing

Mr Dawkins so honoured to have you with us! Hitler was a Christian in name only. He was obsessed with the occult, which is generally not thought a very Christian thing to do. If you want to condemn Christianity by saying Hitler was a Christian, then of course one can condemn secular societies by saying Stalin was an athiest. [Perhaps you want to read the thread first?]

Seeker my comment was addressed to madamez only. If you want to call me silly that is fine, but i find some of the comments here silly in the extreme. I also agreed with your idea of humanist assemblies so please don't patronise me.

and LOL at calling me a religious person. You really do need to read the thread [and obviously don't know my online at all. ]

As Prof Dawkins himself (!) said in a TV interview once - when challenged that Hitler and Stalin, arguably the two most evil men in recent history, were both atheists - "Well, they both had moustaches. You may as well argue that proves people are inherently evil when they have facial hair." (I paraphrase, but it was along those lines.)

Exactly my point. both analogies are ridiculous.

Exactly my point. both analogies are ridiculous.

analogies even.

Doh! pregnancy brain.

Let's be honest, one's degree of belief in an imaginary friend has no correlation with one;s degree of "niceness". I know lovely atheists and others who are rude and arrogant. I know Christians who are delightful and others who are malignant twats.

Hold on! My comments were taken the wrong way there.

I was not condemning christianity in any way, I was only correcting a point you (ruty) made about Hitler not being a Christian.

The comment about the book-burning was not aimed at you ruty, it was a general point meant as a joke but I can see how it would be read as such and I apologise.

I never see religion as being a belief but more of a brain wash. Surely a belief is something that you have chosen to believe in by yourself as a concenting adult with your own mind. Not something that has been drummed into you right from the word go.

I don't have a problem with people believing in something and long as that person has decided to belive in it themselves. If at the age of 25 someone says they have decided to be Catholic or Muslim etc then great, they have made that choice because it's what they believe in.

If on the other hand someone who believes in a certain religion brings their children up to believe in that religion, that's not a belief for the child, it's a brain wash.

My mother brought us up without a religion so when we were old enough to understand and make our own choices and beliefs we could do so.

er, UD, I have argued precisely that point through out.

Sorry - ruty - didn't meant to patronize. But didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to comment on remarks not specifically addressed to me. Reminds me of my convent education - "Mouths that are open should be shut"

Yep, it is a brain wash only. And we are all anti semitic, women enslaving child indoctrinating bigots. Good Grief. this thread is making do a U turn actually. the self righteousness of some of the athiests here rivals the nuttiest evangelist. sorry, losing my patience now. Should have left thread long ago. will delete thread from my stuff.

I was trying to clarify that i don't think all athiests would dismiss bonhoeffer seeker, but i think madamez would.

This is a long thread. Haven't had time to read it all.

I've never understood why if so few people go to church, they then end up getting married in one.

Have you been to a wedding in a church lately?...Yeeks, I'd say about 75% of the congregation don't know any hymns. Some just move their lips and others just stand there looking embarassed.

Bit off-topic, as I can see this thread is very deep and thought provoking, but has anyone else expererienced this? I'm not saying this in a judgemental way, I just feel uneasy for the Bride and Groom..and the church, when it happens.

SK

I agree. If your not religious and do not go to church then why get married in one? I am getting married next year and will certainly not be getting married in a church and wouldn't dream of being so hypercritical!

I should think there are a variety of reasons for getting married in a church.
Perhaps because it's a nice setting and looks nice and traditional.
Or maybe just because people don't go to church regularly doesn't necessarily mean they have completely given up their faith. When it comes to the big events in their life they want to return to church which for some is a focal point for their faith.
That's just two I can think of at the mo.

Ah me, only about 50 posts to go and it's all over, folks, lol.

MsSparkler, yes, I'm brainwashing my children and myself. I'm just quite comfortable with what I'm washing our brains with

I was brought up without a faith and chose it much later in life. I'm rather sorry I wasted so much time before hand, actually, and I really would have liked to have had a solid framework for my ridiculous childhood.

You do it differently and good for you.

The thread's nearly reached the end of its life - and still nobody has satisfactorily explained why it's OK for a NON-FAITH (capitals for emphasis - I realize that's it's completely different at faith schools) school to get my child to say prayers and tell him that God made him and he'll go to heaven if he's good. The explanations I have extracted are

a. Because it's true, and if I won't tell my benighted dcs, somebody's got to.
b. Because it's the law and I just have to put up with it.
c. Because it's custom and practice and it's OK - they'll grow out of it.

Call me picky, but I don't think any of these explanations for imposing a philosophical viewpoint I don't agree with on my 6 year old is quite good enough.

Then put your child in a different school or get them to sit out of these activities. My dd is rehearsing for her nativity but I don't take issue with that. You can't wipe out peoples faith because you don't agree. Crazy I know but you could just explain to your child that you don't hold this belief. It's hardly indoctrination. Indoctrination is believing what you are told by the Government and Media without question and ignoring corruption and slaughter of innocent people. It's watching Tv and buying into the latest marketing campaign.

It's believing that you will be happy spending your life working for someone else, giving your money to the Government who spend it telling you that if you eat less and move more you wont be fat or that if you have lots of stuff and look like Jordan you'll be happy.

To be fair, one could be forgiven for thinking that putting one's child in a non-faith school would mean they didn't have all this. And often, people don't have a choice. As has been said on here numerous times, how would people feel if it were a daily offering-up to the sun-god, or the slaying of a goat?