to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

I completely see your point about schools where children are effectively a "captive audience", but, still, I think there are far worse influences than religion that affect our children at the moment. And most children "grow out of" it, specially if parents don't "feed" religion also at home.
From my experience, unless your parents are religious too, by the time you leave a faith school you have left behind the "myth" side of it and only the ethos (if that), more or less diluted, persists. In most cases, I would say that that ethos is good. Most people I know have had more than esporadic contact with religion and religious people. In fact, most of them have had a religious upbringing at school. Some are still religious, some aren't, many are agnostics. Most of them are good, decent, people.
So, I think there is a little bit too much fear/suspicion/rejection of religion in general.

I'm not afraid of religion. And my child is not at a faith school. I would have no grounds to object if he was. And I find it extraordinary that anyone can say that it's OK for a child to be asked to participate in Christian worship against the wishes of his parents because "there are worse things" and "he'll grow out of it" As I have said regularly on this thread (I really must get a life) how would you feel if I substituted "black mass" or "tarot card reading" or "spirit raising" for "Christian worship"?

Can I just add, that some children don't even need to "grow out of it", some never get into it in the first place. I think sometimes we underestimate children and our influence over them, as parents.

If you are talking about Christian worship in faith schools, no, I don't think it is OK to ask any children to participate in anything against his parent's wishes, but then he is very obviously in the wrong school and parents should not put him in a position where he can be asked to join a religious celebration in the first place.
Now, the logical continuation of this debate is that schools should be secular anyway... I said what I think about this in another thread, and don't want to repeat myself.

seeker, my point is that children are asked to participate in many traditions that not all of us are happy with, but that we put up with. To put your problem into perspective I was comparing it to when children are asked to write letters to Santa and to visit his grotto for presents. I could ask for mine to be excluded but then I would less sympathy for doing that then you would for your problem.

I also disagree with the emphasis on Halloween and try to get my children to go trick or treating. But again, I put my foot down and whilst I'm not a complete killjoy, I would never allow them to go trick or treating and it does annoy me when people make out that I'm being a cruel mother by doing so.

I think a lot of people would have more sympathy for your predicament than mine.

Oh and thanks to the Harry Potter books a lot of kids try spells and indeed Tarot Cards can be bought in many toy shops. I just accept that my children will be surrounded by these things that I don't agree with and will be asked to participate in things I don't agree with. I just hope that as they grow up they find out for themselves what is right and wrong and I'll support them no matter what they choose.

But, I am assuming your children's school doesn't expect them to do a Tarot reading or cast a spell at the end of assembly before they go off to Maths?

But, I am assuming your children's school doesn't expect them to do a Tarot reading or cast a spell at the end of assembly before they go off to Maths?

Hi- just want to pick up om NKF's comment about parents having choice about where they send their children- we live in a very rural area, the village school happens to be church of England- it's the only school serving a number of villages. No choice unless you're prepared to drive. They pray and do quite a few things in village church and methodist chapel; it's a good school, the head is fantastic and we put up with it because we've had problems with evangelicals in a community school- we actually drive to this as it's less churchy than the born again community school

Difference with that seeker is that this country is a Christian country, not a Paganist or a Satanist country. Where I in a different country where they celebrated a different religion, I wouldn't mind them doing their rituals with my kids. I'd explain to them that it's part of their culture.

Also you cannot really compare black magic or Tarot Card practice with religion. One is fortune telling and the other is a faith and a way of life.

Also, are prayers not a bit like spells?

It's our culture in this Christian country to have these prayer rituals. I'm sorry you feel you have no other choice but to send your children to a CofE school, I truly am. But you cannot expect that school to drop all associations with Christianity, especially as it is affiliated with a Christian Church. It's just one of those make do situations.

Not sure if this will land me in hot water but the debate over Father C versus Christianity reminded me of a story told by a former retail colleague. We worked in the international division of a UK based retailer and were always sharing stories about how the approach to retailing at Xmas varies around the world. He piped up that he had seen an ineteresting 'take' in a shopping centre in Japan. What he saw was a display surrounding Father Christmas nailed to a cross !! Japan isn't a 'christian' country nor does it have the FC tradition so they had obviously got rather muddled.

That's a bit disturbing...

According to snopes its probably an urban legend.

www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/cross.asp

The photo shown is a piece of 'art' in New York not Japan.

There are at least some theories that Father Chrismas is a sanitizwed version of a pagan deity ( can't remember which one and frankly am not that bothered) so I still can't see why any one myth is 'better' than any other one. And if you're bleating for tolerance of faith, what makes some faiths less deserving of being taken seriously? The number of belieivers? The number of heretics killed ove the centuries? The amount of money the particular sect has gouged out of its members, sorry, amassed by the goodwill of BIp the Mighty or whoever?

my faith should be taken seriously above al others cos i said so and i have red shoes

Ruhbarb - my point is that it's NOT a faith school! As I said, if it was, I would have to put up with the "God-bothering" . But it isn't.

Seeker - I've bookmarked your link on inclusive assemblies. I've looked at it in the past but need to read it properly again sometime before DDs next class assembly gives me something to get hot and bothered about again so I can give headmaster some constructive suggestions this time

But seeker, this is still a Christian country and so it could be argued that it is still part of our culture. Plus if it is not affiliated to any church then I don't see why your children can't opt out of these prayers.

Madamez, my playing the FC card is to point out that many parents choose to tell their children that a fat man in a red suit comes down their chimney every Christmas with a present for them, but only if they've been good. Some even go so far as to leave food out for this imaginary person. Schools, shopping centres and society as a whole encourages belief in this mythical creature. It seems much more acceptable for our children to believe in him than it does to believe in Jesus.

And may I also make the point that religion killed nobody - man did. Don't tell me that if you take religion away from the man you would take away violence too. If they didn't have a holy war to fight they'd soon come up with another suitable reason to blow each other to smithereens. But you are right, some religions have encouraged and tolerated segregation and violence. This is not the message of Jesus, it never was. Men corrupt everything they get their hands on including, sadly, the Bible.

rhubarb I think you are on a bit of a slippery slope as much of this violence was committed in the name of religion and since we can't turn back the clock how do we know these things would have happened anyway?

imho we do not need religion to provide us with moral guidance and in fact much of what the church teaches is prejudicial and divisive ie attitudes towards homosexuality

He could opt out of prayers - of course he could. But why should he not be a full member of the school community? Why should he be the odd one out? And why should I have to try to explain to him why I want him to be removed half way through assembly? It's SO unnecessary! I suppose this is a nominally Christian country - but I can't think of any other public service where you have to profess a faith. As someone said 579 posts ago "I'd like wheelie bin please" "Certainly,let's just say the Lord's Prayer then I'll get you one"

It's part of our culture like it or not. I don't want my kids told about Santa but same as you I don't want them excluded either. They are taking part in a practice I do not approve of. Yet that is the culture of this country and I have to accept it whilst teaching them what I believe in, at home.

andiemistletoe - most wars were done in the name of religion but had a much more sinister underlying reason. For instance the shite in N. Ireland saw Christian set against Christian. Religion had nothing to do with that war, it was all about gangs.

Our society is very tribal. Religion is just one part of the tribal system. Take it away and the World Wars would still have occured, we'd still have bombed the crap out of Iraq, America would have still entered Vietnam. It's a null argument to say there would have been no wars without religion. It's far more complicated than that.

Rhubarb - you're quite right its complicated. I agree with most of what you said.

But religion tends to make tribalism worse.
NI sure wasn't helped by religiously segragated schools, labelling kids as RCs or prods at age 5 and making sure they didn't mix. It makes disputes about territory a lot worse when one side thinks they - literally - have divine right to a certain piece of land because it says so in an ancient book. It entrenches positions more - terrible atheistic dogmas such as stalinism look likely to be over and done with pretty quickly relative to theistic ones.

Believing in Father Christmas is not an integral part of the education system. And, I have to say, it's not me, the disrespectful atheist, who is comparing Christianity to belief in Father Christmas!

And Rhubarb - please give over on the FC analogy. I don't think any adult tries to really convince a child theres really a fat man in a suit coming down the chimney. Its a game purely for fun. A cheerful palimpsest of a custom.

Wow 'Emsmum' - that's a new word for me , I shall look up 'palimpsest' fortwith. Liked your Snopes link too - I had wondered how true my colleague's story was but the fact that the piece of art was done at all speaks volumes about the commercialisation of everything.

if your position is that the tribalism in NI had nothing to do with religion, then I am speechless, frankly. yes, it was tribalism but the religious element of the conflict was very real (and remains so).
the sectarianism was not helped and was in fact made worse by the practice of schools divided along religious lines.
which is one of the reasons I am so vehemently opposed to religious discrimination and indoctrination in schools.
it is a Bad Thing. imo