to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

There are positive aspects to religion such as a value system and community, its all well and good blaming religion for war but I think people would be at war without it too. It's oversimplifying to say religion is the reason for war. There's nothing wrong with being atheist but you still need a value system, which our society is sadly lacking. Have you caught Jerem Kyle or Tricia lately.

My parents removed me from all religious education as a small child. We were taught good morals and good manners and to love our fellow humans by our parents. We didn't need religion to achieve this.

here here beaniesteve

I never said you were disrespectful. Father Christmas is part of this society and culture. As a Christian I might not believe in that but I accept it as culture. The comparison was that if we can accept things we do not believe, why can't others?

And you only have to read some of the Xmas threads on Mumsnet to see how seriously the whole FC business is taken.

It is just plain nonsensical to blame religion for wars including NI. These people were not religious, they were brought up with hatred of their fellow-men, that is as far removed from Christianity as you can get.

Don't blame God for what man does.

And I'll stop with the FC analogy when people stop calling my religion a load of bollocks. I think it's a fair analogy, parents DO tell their children about FC and pretend it's all real. We tell ours about Jesus because we happen to believe it is real.

I respect those of you who go ahead with the whole FC and tooth fairy business so I don't see why we can't ask for a bit of respect for our own religion.

And one more thing. If you tell your children it's all lies, are you not yourselves brainwashing them? How would you feel if they grew up and wanted to belong to a religious community?

I think I have shown the utmost respect for your religion. I don't think it is particularly respectful to your religion to oblige people to pay lip service to it. And I really don't understand why you would want that to happen. And I actually don't think it is particularly respectful of my beliefs to say "Oh, well, it doesn't matter if your children take part in Christian rituals whether you want them to or not - there are worse things!"

An interesting new direction here: among our various CDs of kids' music there is one that DS dad bought without looking at it in much detail that contains a version of 'All Things Bright And Beautiful'. Mmmmmkay, in along with Right Said Fred, the Teddy Bear's Picnic, This Old Man, etc.

What does everyone else think about that? Said CD was bought from Sainsburys, put out by EMI, not in any way sponsored by any particular faith organisation, yet it has a hymn on it. Which, quite apart from giving those of us who have suffered the boredom of many a C of E service something to laugh at each time we have to sing about the 'purple-headed mountain' is not actually the most benign of songs to sing. Even though the verse about knowing your place because it;s the Imaginary Friend's intention that you should live a miserable imporverished life has generally been dropped...

yes that verse has been dropped thankfully. Bt it was only one bloke what wrote it, that verse represents capitalism far more than it represents Christianity [actually in direct opposition to JC's teachings.] I can see why you wouldn't want it on the CD [plus horrible tune anyway] Surprised EMI put it on.

seeker I was talking in general about comments made on here.

To put your problem into perspective, say I moved to Israel and put my kids into a Jewish school. Would I then be right in complaining about the rituals they would be taught?

It depends how you see it. You can either view it as religion, which I do, or if you don't believe how about viewing it as eccentric cultural traditions? If you don't believe in God then I don't see why you should object to my comparing it with FC, or why you can't explain to your kids that it's just a ritual thing that sometimes happens in this country.

I note you never answered my question about how you'd feel if your kids wanted to get baptised when they were older.

Your children are taught to pray to what you see as an imaginary being, taught to give thanks to this being for creating them and to ask him to look after them. My kids are taught to write letters to an imaginary man (letters that now receive a reply thanks to some Santa organisation) asking him for things and to give thanks when those things arrive. They are taught to leave food out for him, similar to offerings made at Mass to God.

I think the two compare very well.

madamez - what are you asking? Whether it is OK for hymns to be put on CDs without warning stickers?

The big takers of life in the twentieth century were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. They were materialists and between them they murdered many, many more people than any religious fanatic.

"My kids are taught to write letters to an imaginary man (letters that now receive a reply thanks to some Santa organisation) asking him for things and to give thanks when those things arrive."

Do they ask FC for things like courage, patience and charity? I think your conflation of the two systems is a little wobbly.

Rhubarb - sorry, I didn't see the question about baptism. Of course if they want to be baptized when they are old enough to make the decision for themselves it's up to them. I wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't be my business to like it. Don't see the relevance of the question, though.

You see, I don't make a big deal out of Father Christmas either. My children have always known that he doesn't really exist - but that it's fun to pretend. I suspect many of the "believing" children are the same.

If I sent my children to a Jewish school then they would have to conform to the rituals. Just as if I sent them to a Catholic school in this country. But I have done neither of thos things. I hav sent my children to a non denominational state primary school.

I really don't understand why you can't see that I have a right not to want my children to be told that God made them at a non-faith school.

Seeker - you have my sympathies that no-one 'on the other side' seems to appreciate the point you are trying to make re the normal state (not faith) school which your kids attend. I don't think there is any place for 'worship' in a non-faith school.I also think too many people assume that we have some sort of 'choice'. Those of us living in rural areas have none.

Thank you, idlingabout. I have been feeling as if I'm speaking a different language. The ironic thing is that I thought I had exercised a choice - we go past an excellent Cof E primary school to get to our, supposedly non-denominational one!

I can see that this is irksome, seeker. If it's supposed to be n-d, then that's what it should be.

Eliza2: Hitler was religious. He promoted churchgoing and also consulted psychics, pagans, mystics etc. Whatever one might think of him, it's inaccurate to call him and his crew materialists.

Tellusmater: I just think it's a bit odd for a hymn to show up on a kids' CD alongside There Was An Old Lady WHo Swallowed a Fly. And, while I may be wrong here, isn;t ATBB a specifically anglican hymn? So along with any Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, atheists, Hindus and the rest who bought a copy of that CD, wouldn't Catholics feel a bit, well, startled?
Though I really doubt that the compilers of the CD had any sinister intention, it does kind of get to the root of the problem people have with this casual exposure to one brand of superstition: the sheer arrogance of assuming it's OK to just dump your particular brand of superstition all over the place as though everyone gets it, accepts it, and if they don't then they;re just making a fuss.

I think I mentioned this a while back. The state is Christian, therefore state schools are Christian. That is the answer to the WHY.

Therefore, to do something about it is going to require a political act and political activism on the part of people who feel as strongly. Of course, there is a chance that people who prefer a Christian ethos in schools whether they are active Christians, vaguely religious or non-Christians, will outnumber those who would like it to be scrapped, or they may not. But that's democracy.

workingclass - I said the very same thing about 5 days ago and was ignored.

Many of us would like to see the Church disestablished and the links between the state and the church taken down. But weirdly although only 15% of the population attend church services (of any sort) and 35% positively reject faith the amount of faith involvement particularly in schools is actually going up. In my local area a new secondary school has just been built. It is a Catholic Academy. There are already a number of Catholic secondary schools in the borough, and I haven't seen any active campaign or evidence of more catholics in the area (I don't even think there is a massive influx of Polish workers). There has been no public justification as to why the new school is Catholic. I assume it is because the church offered money. As an ex-Catholic the last thing I would do is send my children to a Catholic school, but my money will go towards paying for it. I don't see what this has to do with democracy, because the involvement of church in schooling, or the disestablishment (or not) of the church are not a question that have even been asked of the electorate. So I think that is a fairly spurious point.

Eliza, the examples of Pol Pot etc are really wildly beside the point.
it is bizarrely illogical to connect atheism with the acts of violent megalomaniacs.
their acts are entirely unconnected with their faith or lack of it.
I am not really sure what point you are making
or indeed what "materialists" are.

Nope, it's not illogical at all in the context of that tired old chestnut: 'religion is the cause of all the evil in the world', which was where we were starting to go when Northern Ireland came into the argument.

no i think it is fair to point out that many entirely secular societies have been responsible for terrible atrocities when people keep blaming Christianity for other atrocities. people do bad things regardless. And Hitler was obsessed with the occult. If that makes him religious then so be it but he certainly wasn't Christian.

Don't suppose you've ever hear of Dietrich Bonhoeffer madamez? He was hanged just before the end of WW2 for planning to assassinate Hitler. But you'll never read his books because he has silly superstitious beliefs. Hey, maybe we should burn them instead?

nooka, I'd be interested to know the source of your statistics. (Not saying I doubt them, I just like to arm myself with sources.) I'd always worked on the idea (and I can't remember where I got this from) that about as many people went to church regularly as went to see live football matches - about 1-2 million. So 3% of the population, if we are being generous.