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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DD’s science teacher AIBU

740 replies

Adviceneededalways · 21/01/2021 21:46

Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

OP posts:
Adviceneededalways · 23/01/2021 08:25

@LolaSmiles well simply because at the time (straight after class) she couldn’t see that it was opinion rather than fact which suggested to her that not only was it wrong but a very sexist and discriminatory statement and it made her angry.

And after we had had a think about it, discussed she realised that though she she didn’t like it, it was of course an opinion...

Someone suggested on her that a fact shouldn’t cause a reaction and that was key to her understanding the difference.

OP posts:
Royalbloo · 23/01/2021 08:25

I think it's a scientific wording thing. You wouldn't state any 'fact' with the word 'should' in it?!

Royalbloo · 23/01/2021 08:26

But I do think they should find a better example

LolaSmiles · 23/01/2021 08:28

*Well done - you've just sorted out every 14 year old on the planet grin
That makes total sense to a response regarding a specific situation Hmm

Learning when to complain and when not to is a life lesson that most people learn through their teens.
Some don't learn this and in my experience it causes issues and needless conflict as they think their opinion equals fact, and they're ready to complain over anything that they don't agree with (like someone I went to university with who felt her strongly held opinions on lessons 6 weeks into training made her more knowledgeable than the team of people who were training her).

AStudyinPink · 23/01/2021 08:29

Royalbloo

As others have pointed out, it’s a brilliant example of how people get their blinkers on about emotive subjects, and it leads to unscientific outcomes (opinions asserted as/genuinely believed to be empirical realities).

LolaSmiles · 23/01/2021 08:34

Adviceneededalways
All of that was a very good learning process, as I've said.

It's the keeping a totally unreasonable complaint as a valid option that I disagree with. I don't see what's wrong with saying 'actually this isn't grounds to complain but we can still discuss the topic'.

Adviceneededalways · 23/01/2021 08:37

@LolaSmiles but it wasnt a valid complaint after she’d realised that it was opinion rather than but IMO she learnt this the best way possible, by her coming to the realisation herself.

OP posts:
Mummyoflittledragon · 23/01/2021 08:37

[quote Adviceneededalways]@MrsHusky yes but I have said several times already I think a child is far better reaching the right answer theirselves through discussion and further than telling her she is wrong and shutting down any line of conversation about it...

She 14, if I said “I don’t care what you have to say, you’re incorrect and I don’t want to hear any more about it” for example, how is that teaching her anything?![/quote]
Well that turned out better than I expected after this comment.

I don’t think it was a poor choice of examples at all. Maybe now your dd will be not become a sheep and better equipped to argue against #nodebate, which seems to have become so insidious in universities.

Adviceneededalways · 23/01/2021 08:38

Please excuse the typos I’m on my phone.

OP posts:
Adviceneededalways · 23/01/2021 08:41

@Mummyoflittledragon on the contrary that’s exactly how it went and how she came to correct answer herself.

I have absolutely no worries about her becoming a sheep.

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 23/01/2021 08:43

but it wasnt a valid complaint after she’d realised that it was opinion rather than but IMO she learnt this the best way possible, by her coming to the realisation herself.
I think this is where we disagree.

I think it wasn't a valid complaint because complaining about correct teaching resources just because you disagree isn't a valid complaint. The fact of the situation is the lesson materials were correct so there wasn't grounds for complaint.

Whereas you seem to think that once she realised the example was an opinion then there wasn't a valid complaint, so the complainant's validity rests on your DD's opinion.

I agree with the fact she now knows the difference and your conversations sound productive. I'm just wary of a complaint being considered valid/not is whether someone who is in a bad mood agrees.

Adviceneededalways · 23/01/2021 08:45

@LolaSmiles possibly but having just turned 14 I think quite complex for her to understand and I’m happy that the latter half of your last post (knowing the difference) is what we have worked out this time round.

OP posts:
saraclara · 23/01/2021 08:56

I feel like this was meant to be a bigger lesson for her today, so many good lessons learned that I’m kinda glad she stalled and had to take a 2nd look...

How about " I'm kinda glad that teacher put such a thought provoking example in that worksheet, that really taught my daughter something important"

SO many people in this thread have accused the teacher of being wrong and using a really poor example, when it's clear that it was carefully chosen to demonstrate how hard this area can be.
Maybe the complaint letter needs to be one thanking her instead.

JohnMiddleNameRedactedSwanson · 23/01/2021 08:59

It was a bit of dated text from an old worksheet or book not someone's personal life findings...get real!!!

You don’t know that. It wasn’t yours to publish. I am surprised that you need this explaining to you.

Adviceneededalways · 23/01/2021 09:11

@JohnMiddleNameRedactedSwanson I absolutely do know that as I cropped the picture.

OP posts:
Onjnmoeiejducwoapy · 23/01/2021 09:22

Reading the latest comments by OP, I’m weirded out by your seeming view that a bulldozer approach is what you want to instil in her? I think it does teenagers the world of good to understand that they’re frequently wrong. The teacher taught her a great lesson today, that her immaturity and lack of analysis affected her ability to understand the world. She was wrong (plain and simple), how can she build on this to improve herself?

Strong views should be accompanied by listening skills and higher order thinking, otherwise she’s a bigot. Maybe a progressive bigot, but unable to think and react to new information. Her seeing red over something so small and trying to quash it with letters of complaint, rather than thinking for one second “could I be wrong”, would be a conceding sign for me. I’m glad she has seen sense, but I would want to see evidence that next time she responds with a bit more insight.

Frodont · 23/01/2021 09:24

I’m glad she has seen sense, but I would want to see evidence that next time she responds with a bit more insight

Jesus.

ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown · 23/01/2021 09:34

[quote Adviceneededalways]@LolaSmiles but it wasnt a valid complaint after she’d realised that it was opinion rather than but IMO she learnt this the best way possible, by her coming to the realisation herself.[/quote]
How much of this live contact with a teacher in lockdown was spent on your dd's disagreement, I wonder?
I'm sure the rest of the class appreciated it.

Frodont · 23/01/2021 09:36

That's just one of the reasons why it was thoughtless.

Change the wording to "black people should have the same rights as white people" and suddenly it's not looking so clever and brilliant.

jacks11 · 23/01/2021 09:36

I’m not sure it’s an example that that was the wisest to use but your daughter is incorrect, factually speaking. And you probably should explain this to her and why.

As others have said it is not a universal fact that girls or women can do any job. It is your daughter’s belief that girls/women are capable of doing the anything a man or boy can do. Morally, as well as on an intellectual basis, I would absolutely agree with her (with a few very specific exceptions). But it is NOT a fact that they can, it IS an opinion that they should be able to do so.

There may be legislation to attempt to ensure equal rights for women (and other protected characteristics) but that is not to say that it is a fact that this happens nor that just because something is an accepted norm in this country that it is the same the world over.

I think it is important to be able to tell children when they are incorrect. ‘Having strong beliefs” does not = “I’m right” and it’s important to help children (and especially those with strong beliefs and/or a tendency to be a little dogmatic”) to understand the world is not black and white, their view is not always fact and that whilst something perhaps should be a certain way, the reality is that it isn’t.

I do think there is far too much of a tendency not to criticise/correct children, and to over praise in general. Strong beliefs can be good, a sense of what injustice is and the desire to right those injustices can be good. But inability to acknowledge that you might be wrong (because you’re always praised and admired for your strong beliefs, and never seriously challenged, for instance), or lacking an understanding that other people are entitled to a different opinion and that neither of you are (demonstrably) wrong, is not a good thing. This is how we get the issue with people only willing to be within the echo chamber of those who share our own beliefs. It can fire deliberate ignorance. I think it is far better to be able to have a discussion where you can state your own firmly held beliefs, but be open enough to listen to others and mature enough to admit when you haven’t got all the answers.

At 14, I would expect to be able to have a debate with her along the lines of “ I know you feel strongly about what the teacher said, and you are right that in most instances women should be free to do whatever job (or at least nearly every job) that a man can do, and vice versa. But the reality is that this is not the case. Even in this country where there is equality legislation, there is still bias and discrimination against all sorts of people. And it is also absolutely true that across many cultures and in many countries women absolutely cannot do whatever job they want. So, your teacher was right- it is your opinion that they should be able to do any job, but it is not a fact that they can”. Skirting round it, not wanting to say she has not 100% right because you don’t want to dent her confidence and “I just love that you have strong beliefs” actually does her no favours, if she is not able to evaluate facts to inform her strong beliefs. Strong beliefs are, in and of themselves, not necessarily praiseworthy.

We need to teach young people how to think, not what to think. How to evaluate evidence, how to distinguish fact from opinion, and how evaluate sources, and so on. Otherwise we end up with “false news” and “alternative facts” positions. Whose proponents also very strongly believe that they are right.

JohnMiddleNameRedactedSwanson · 23/01/2021 09:40

[quote Adviceneededalways]@JohnMiddleNameRedactedSwanson I absolutely do know that as I cropped the picture.[/quote]
I understand why you are defensive - you have had an unfairly rough time on this thread, and I am not here to put the boot in after there has been a resolution. I don't have any objection to the discussion of the task. I am just asking you to reconsider posting teachers' resources on a public forum in the future, please, even if you have cropped them. Remote learning is hard on teachers, students and families alike and the main thing that is keeping everyone going is a very big dollop of goodwill.

saraclara · 23/01/2021 09:41

We need to teach young people how to think, not what to think. How to evaluate evidence, how to distinguish fact from opinion, and how evaluate sources, and so on. Otherwise we end up with “false news” and “alternative facts” positions. Whose proponents also very strongly believe that they are right.

Absolutely. Very well put.
It also seems, from this thread, that there are also a lot of adults who need the same teaching.

Frodont · 23/01/2021 09:46

@saraclara

We need to teach young people how to think, not what to think. How to evaluate evidence, how to distinguish fact from opinion, and how evaluate sources, and so on. Otherwise we end up with “false news” and “alternative facts” positions. Whose proponents also very strongly believe that they are right.

Absolutely. Very well put.
It also seems, from this thread, that there are also a lot of adults who need the same teaching.

Yes, I agree. The amount of posters who have made judgements about the OP's dd, despite not knowing her, the OP, or the teacher's motives, and described her with abusive language - prat, idiot, sheep - really need to start to use a bit of emotional intelligence and critical thinking.
AStudyinPink · 23/01/2021 09:52

really need to start to use a bit of emotional intelligence and critical thinking.

How about we start with a bit of normal intelligence? Being wrong isn’t some personal failing or insult. It’s just what happens from time to time, particularly when we’re young.

PerpetualStudent · 23/01/2021 09:57

Not read the whole thread OP, but as a social sciences academic feel free to tell your daughter from me she’s very on the ball to be identifying issues in different framings of ‘truth’ and what counts as ‘evidence’ in different disciplines. The scientific method is of course centrally important to human development and is very clear on these matters, but when you are doing qualitative research on individual or cultural experience for example you need different ways of categorising ‘evidence’*. This gets even more interesting when you notice, as your perceptive DD has done, that the rationalistic scientific method often has a tendency to reinforce gendered preconceptions.
Tell her to keep up the good work and keep asking tough questions Grin

*Not an easy task to do with rigour and integrity, tell her to look up the concept of ‘relativism’ if she wants to think more on this.