DD’s science teacher AIBU

[Adviceneededalways]

Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

@BraveGoldie yes she is meant to be immature, absolutely! 14 is a difficult age, where you know enough to think you’re an adult but lack the ability to actually analyse and understand.

I think a teenager writing a letter like that would be making herself look like a prat—I did a lot of crap like that at that age! And so did others, I only realised what a prat I looked like when I saw others doing it it’s a learning process, teenagers embarrass themselves a lot and that’s ok

[quote Wheresmykimchi]@BraveGoldie

A pupil writing a letter of protest to a teacher s utterly ridiculous[/quote]
Why? Teachers are their main figure of authority controlling their lives. How is it different from writing a letter of protest as an adult to a government figure?

I would say it is a life skill - not ridiculous! It may be an over-reaction in this case, but it is a totally responsible way to communicate with someone in power, assuming it is phrased with courtesy. I would simple help her learn how to write it effectively, so she is clear and persuasive in a way the reader will be willing to absorb. (In this case, expressing empathy for the huge task of preparing work etc, while respectfully stating and explaining what has upset her)

"Wives should stay home making dinner and babies".

is AN OPINION, not a fact .

The example in class, is also AN OPINION.

It may be because in the English language we use words interchangeably such as law, and fact that have more than one meaning.

Women can do any job. It is an opinion because it is in a sense a 'thing' (law, fact) that is arbitrary. It has been agreed on collectively by human consent, in particular circumstances for a particular purpose. This may be enforceable by laws, but it is possible that the law could be rescinded at any point in the future.

It is therefore subjective to the collective will of a society and can be changed or altered.

The answer that the teacher is trying to get the pupils to see is that 'facts' are unalterable by human will.

A person can be of the opinion that the earth is flat but the fact remains that it is spherical, and does not change even if 100% agree that it is flat.

I need to reference Dorothy L Sawyers for teaching me that so clearly! I am not some super brain!!

If the content of the proposed letter was that DD thought that this was an inappropriate example to use, maybe.

But it sounds as though the letter would be arguing that the statement is a fact, which is more akin to writing to a teacher to protest that 2 + 2 = 5.

Women can do any job.

This is fact, not opinion. The only thing that no woman can do, but a man can, is to produce sperm - if it can be considered a job. We can test if there is any job that there is no woman who can (although it might be difficult to demonstrate). And if you give any job to women, at least some of them will be perfectly capable to do it.
Whether they should be able to, is a matter of opinion.

@saraclara

The teacher should have stuck to clear unemotive examples to get the point across.

No. As has already been said, the difficult thing is to separate fact from opinion when emotions are heightened and people feel strongly. That's why a good teacher will include this kind of example.

This is exactly what learning to be rational involves. It's easy when it's easy. It's hard to remain factual and reasonable when emotions are heightened.

This is a science lesson, not a social studies one.

The purpose of the lesson was to teach the children about the scientific method and presumably was leading on to a discussion about deductive and inductive reasoning or similar. Picking contentious issues just distracts from that into a discussion of those issues (as has been shown by the OP's example of her daughter's reaction). Whilst you aren't wrong in what you say, we are talking about demonstrating the meaning of these things to then allow them to be applied and developed. Start simple and build from there.

I mean I could start teaching the kids that strong falsificationism of the type taught at school is not actually how science progresses and there is little in terms of theoretical method that fundamentally separates science from other areas of academic study, but it would just be highly confusing even if it is correct.

How do you know this wasn't the challenge question designed to be placed deliberately at the end of a sequence of much easier decisions? Sounds like it was to me.

@Lweji

This is about the scientific method and so we should be talking about factual observations and opinions not delving into sociology and politics.

Because science never strays into or is affected by sociology and politics?

It is extremely important that anyone doing science is accurate in what they write, interprets correctly what they read, and can clearly differenciate between fact supported assertions and mere opinion.

Again, to teach this subject you need to start simple and clear and move on from there. Distracting from the purpose of the lesson by having contentious statements involved doesn't aid in achieving the learning outcomes. We are talking about teaching children the basics of the scientific method here, not a graduate level seminar on scientific ethics and philosophy.

I mean the scientific method we get taught at school is not actually how people actually do science, but it is a useful model to get people to start thinking in a more objective way.

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

How do you know this wasn't the challenge question designed to be placed deliberately at the end of a sequence of much easier decisions? Sounds like it was to me.

Well if it was, the teacher should reassess the value of doing that in teaching the scientific method rather than getting a lot of students to debate that statement.

The statement can be debated as to whether is is a fact or opinion quite quickly, whilst challenging pupils thinking because it is an outdated opinion.

The purpose of the lesson was to find fact from opinion.

@lottiegarbanzo

Silly example - or one designed to engage their attention?

'Should' is the giveaway.

There are plenty of countries in which girls cannot work in any field they choose and in which the government, teachers and probably the majority of the population would agree that they should not be able to. That is a factual statement.

Your dd has allowed herself to fall into a bear self-righteous teenager trap. I'd advise her not to be so easily led, or wound up, in future. A lot of people gain a lot of amusement by distracting young women with energy-sapping wind-ups, to keep them away from the important things in life, like educational excellence. This is a useful learning point for her.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance but you'll never be able to see the woods, if you keep crashing into the trees.

Fabulous post and more eloquently put than I ever could. I agree 100%.

@An0n0n0n

Good on your daughter. I think it's great she wants to raise it through a letter and thinking her thoughts and communicate them.

Is it also good she had an argument with a. Teacher about it?

No, she should be getting her point across by debating with her peers and teachers. Not being argumentative because she has a bee in her bonnet about feminism.

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

The statement can be debated as to whether is is a fact or opinion quite quickly, whilst challenging pupils thinking because it is an outdated opinion.

The purpose of the lesson was to find fact from opinion.

Examples that are potentially goady, cause arguments between pupils and teachers and leave pupils upset at the end of lessons don't have any place in science classroom.

As a scientist myself this is not what I want science teaching to be about. There are far too many other parts of the curriculum where debating women's rights are much better addressed at school and far too much important core science to be taught to allow that kind of distraction. It is bad enough that we have relegated the entire of science to a single subject at school.

Examples that are potentially goady, cause arguments between pupils and teachers and leave pupils upset at the end of lessons don't have any place in science classroom.

I hope you never have to teach biology....! The pupil didn't need to get upset, had she realised the question she was being asked.

The argument wasn't caused by the statement, but by the student.
Statements can't cause arguments. And that is a fact.
We only argue them if we want to.

It is an opinion. However. Here, schools are subject to the Equality Act and there is a large tome of advice, including curricular, specific to the way of running schools of different types. She might be interested to find out what policies are in place at her school that cover treatment of both staff and students.

Some might have the opinion, supported both by UK law and the values the school may wish to be seen to uphold, that casual discrimination should be challenged constructively.

E.G - from assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/315587/Equality_Act_Advice_Final.pdf

Sex/gender
Please also see the section on single sex schools in Chapter 2.
3.17. Schools need to make sure that pupils of one sex are not singled out for different and less favourable treatment from that given to other pupils. They should check that there are no practices which could result in unfair, less favourable treatment of boys or girls. For example, it would be unlawful for a school to require girls to learn needlework while giving boys the choice between needlework and woodwork classes.

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

Examples that are potentially goady, cause arguments between pupils and teachers and leave pupils upset at the end of lessons don't have any place in science classroom.

I hope you never have to teach biology....! The pupil didn't need to get upset, had she realised the question she was being asked.

Many better ways to teach imho that would stay focus on scientific reasoning and what constitutes fact and opinion in science. Regardless of whether the child didn't need to get upset or not they did and so it didn't really work as a good example of scientific reasoning.

As others have said. In other frameworks (such as legal) certain things can indeed be facts that are not scientific facts. This just muddies waters in teaching about the science at school level. You need to keep politics out of the science classroom as much as possible.

Not really sure me what you mean about hoping I don't teach biology, not sure what makes that any difference. Teaching physiological differences between sexes and similar can easily be taught without referring to socio-political theories.

Eleganz, I very much agree with you.

I've had a student come crying from a biology class when a teacher said the student would have periods as a biological female.

I still maintain the student has got a whole heap of baggage they've added to that question. It's a valuable lesson to strip that baggage away and see what you are really being asked.

Also, if she’s so interested in debating and politics, she needs to learn the difference between fact and opinion! I would be worried about a teenager having such strong beliefs with seemingly no higher order thinking skills. Means she is vulnerable to indoctrination and lacks the skills to develop she thinking
I agree.
There seems to be a growing trend where people think that they are right therefore their opinion is fact and everything is wrong think. These people also seem to be very keen to 'challenge' but not so keen to engage their brains and think.

But then there's some parents who seem to think that being argumentative and self-righteous is a good quality for their DC to have, whereas I look at university student crying because someone they don't like has been invited to speak and think it's a depressing state of affairs.

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

I've had a student come crying from a biology class when a teacher said the student would have periods as a biological female.

I still maintain the student has got a whole heap of baggage they've added to that question. It's a valuable lesson to strip that baggage away and see what you are really being asked.

That's a very convenient example that you happen to have had happen to you that you can just reference in this discussion right now...

It's a bad example. Let her write the letter, but make sure she does it in a genuinely persuasive rather than angry way. This is a good learning opportunity about campaigning skills.

I also had another student cry when told about sex. Doesn't mean that anything that's upsets students shouldn't be taught.