Working class wannabes in the News

[Oileo]

It’s been reported in a few papers that ‘47 per cent of those in middle-class professional and managerial occupations identify as working class’ and 24 per cent of people doing middle-class jobs whose parents also did middle class jobs identified as working class too. The gist is that it’s now cool to pretend you rose to your position/ wealth on merit- rather than pretend to be posh.

It got me wondering (again!) about the class system. When do you change class?Can you easily in a generation? I had a middle-class job, yet I don’t know how I’d reply in that survey. I still personally feel a gulf between those who grew up wealth and a middle class background. Even in my 40s I have a bigger mortgage (no inheritance), my interests often don’t match (can’t play an instrument, I don’t know many ballets or plays in conversation for example, no ‘hobbies’ or skills outside education). I feel sometimes it’s obvious networking at work or in my dress (I wear hoop earrings, a number of colleagues over the years have made snide comments as a small example, but it’s more than that in presentation of yourself).

Part the reason for my fascination with class is that I don’t really fit as an immigrant. My parents were a cleaner and a security guard, but I/ they had access to a good education and the Soviet Union was a system that simply can’t be applied here. I have certainly earned here on merit money wise, but have also had better educational opportunities that many British working class. So I don’t really fit.

So
Yabu- your job defines your class
Yanbu-class is far more complex, and somebody may identify as working class if those are their roots.

He thinks I speak like the Queen (I really don’t, but he’s from oop North).

Oop North? Also, you mention in your post that he thinks you're middle class due to your correct use of grammar. The full stop goes inside the second bracket in this case.

You’re the class you are born and raised as.
I’m working class.
My kids are middle class, raised by working class parents.
My grandchildren will be solidly middle class (probably), raised by middle class parents and I expect very happy and comfortable in a mainly middle class milieu.

Yanbu. Class is way more than income, occupation or education.

My parents are working class, they grew up in South East London in the 50s in slum housing (think call the midwife). Dad’s family had market stalls. Dad became a tradesman and did well and through luck and circumstances in the 80s ended up buying a nice house in Chiswick. Mum and dad earned more than my most of friends parents in the same area who were mainly teachers who drove clapped out Volvos and camped in France. We drove newer cars and went to Spain. We were considered quite disgustingly nouveau. I remember having a bbq with some of my parents friends and one of the neighbours hanging out of the window and chanting ‘you’re working class, you’re working class’ at us. As if we’d all apologise with shame immediately. Like it was some kind of insult. Like we didn’t know. Like we cared. 😂

My parents will never be MC and I feel neither will I fully. Despite the fact I live in a MC area and have all the trappings I still have a lot of WC priorities (like my parents) compared to my solidly MC friends who had drs and teachers as parents. However, I think my children will be MC. I think it takes 3 generations at least.

Money doesn’t by you class
It’s that simple

I find class really interesting. I agree there are multiple different markers of class and it's difficult to identify which class you are in now.

Both of my parents were degree educated although they came from working class backgrounds originally (grandparents were farmer and plumber, and housewives). But they went to grammar schools in the 50/60s and so went to university as they were both academic. As a result they had quite middle-class interests, dad was into classical music and poetry and cricket, and mum liked the theatre and shakespeare and art galleries. But after uni they had gone into relatively low paying jobs (social workers) and had struggled financially because my dad paid a lot of money each month to his first wife, which were the terms of their divorce even years after their children had grown up and left home.

The only place they could afford to buy their own property was an ex-council house, their road and two either side had been sold off by the council but the rest of the estate was and is still council owned. As such me and my brother grew up essentially on a council estate and attending a primary school in that area, we didn't ever really go without but our parents didn't have money for horse riding lessons or greek holidays or meals out or fancy clothes. None of the kids I grew up with would have had those things if their parents came into some money - it would have been a holiday to spain or new trainers or a new TV or car.

So I don't really know what class I came from, as it's a weird mish mash. My mum definitely considered herself working class because of her parents' roots but she was a homeowner, was degree educated and in a professional job and even had 'middle class' interests. I think I think I am now quite firmly in the middle class category (postgrad degree, professional job, home owner at 29) but even I kind of feel like I had working class roots in some ways. I still feel a bit awkward when friends talk about visiting their parent's holiday homes or going skiing or their families having dinner parties, all of that is quite alien to me.

If you work you are working class. If you don’t your not.

I realise that’s not how people define working class/middle class. But IMO identifying yourself as one class or the other is pretentious. And let’s be honest, it’s only the ones who want to be seen as middle class that do it. The mind boggles why you would want to be defined as middle with is synonymous with mediocre/average. Why not just declare yourself as upper class 😂

I consider myself working class even though I work in a definitely middle class profession. I was brought up in fairly humble circumstances and went to a terrible comprehensive school in a small (now ex) mining town. That said, I was considered "posh" at school as my Dad had a white collar job, but actually our income was way below that of our mining neighbours at the time. I guess I am culturally upper working class. I did have a slightly different upbringing to many of my classmates as my parents both had grammar school educations and always encouraged me and my siblings to study and "better" ourselves. But they themselves had lived through real poverty, my mum in particular. Whilst we were a bit different to our neighbours we were definitely not middle class! I consider myself very lucky to have been born when I was. Had I been born significantly earlier or later I doubt very much I would have gone to University, but it was genuinely free to me - no fees and the grant, whilst not generous was enough to live on.

My children are middle class. They've grown up with 2 "professional" parents and have a lifestyle I could only have dreamed of. Nobody laughs at them at their school when they talk about going to University, but my ambitions were a great source of mirth at my school. So yes, I think they are MC now, though not quite as MC as some of their friends I suppose. I, however still consider myself WC and after 30 plus years in my chosen profession, I think the majority of my colleagues still consider me to be WC too. To a degree I probably do have imposter syndrome, but it isn't all in my head. Plenty of people have made it very clear over the years that I am not really "one of them" and never will be . Which is fine, because I would hate to have their attitude. My real friends in my professional life are other "outsiders" on the whole - other WC people, people from other countries etc. Despite having the same qualifications, same income, same (or in some cases higher) status in the workplace there is still a social distinction between those who were "born to it" and those who weren't. Interestingly I don't think my children are treated any differently by the children of my colleagues than other peers who come from many generations of the MC, so maybe one generation is all it takes? I have worked hard to ensure my children mix with as wide a range of people as possible though as I don't want them to develop some of the attitudes I have encountered if it can be helped.

I don't even think there are "class based" hobbies/interests either.

Me and my son go to our local football matches, and usually stand together in a group with our friends, including a headmaster, a senior partner of a local solicitor's practice, an independent financial advisor, and a university lecturer (I'm a chartered accountant). We enjoy our Saturday, traditional working class activity, of watching the footie, yet our professions say we're middle class. How does that work? I often go to the theatre with the solicitor - now that is, apparently middle class. So, we do both middle class and working class activities. We're all from definitely working class backgrounds, my parents were a grocery shop manager and a secretary, my solicitor friends' parents were a bin man and a shop assistant.

The class system effectively became redundant in it's old form, when we all gained social mobility, i.e. grammar schools, easier access to universities, etc.

If you work you are working class. If you don’t your not.

That’s clearly not true though, is it? Prince William and Prince Harry both worked when they were serving in the army. They didn’t become working class!

Oh wow, this took off whilst I did some work! Off to read...

Agree income is not related to class as a friend of mine earns approx 8-12k a year ( I know as I help her with tax forms and she is an artist.

She is absolutely middle class or higher as she doesn't need work. Her lifestyle is funded from family money and her parents.

I earn a lot more £60k but have to work so I think I am working class. I come from a family who have to work

I recommend you drop your obsession with social class in UK, and address your thoughts and energies to practicalities

(work, paying the bills, and social relations in your home and worlplace)_

I never understand the 'oop north' thing. Which accent in the north actually says 'oooop'. Its like the 't'mill' thing. Id say 'go up mill' (if I was ever going to utter that phrase which is unlikely)

A friend born a docker's son who grew up in London's Dockland in the 60s/70 and was the first in his family to go to art school, becoming a successful graphic designer, told me that his relationship with his whole family changed for the worse because his aesthetic compass changed so completely. They found him a snob, and he struggled with the ugliness of their visual choices.

I think cultural choices shape class far more than income or education. If someone likes TV soaps, celebrity gossip, R2 or commercial radio hits and 'reality' TV, I tend to switch them off. Money has nothing to do with it. SIL and niece are those people. Nice enough, very kind and far from stupid but absolutely no interest in art or music or politics or books or ideas.

User- sounds awful but I immediately thought you are not middle class by the first three words of your second paragraph.
I think class really is that subtle.

To those noting about being an immigrant and class... I would say I do feel some distinctions. My dialect/ accent is ‘village’, skills are. My neighbours for example from a capital city do have more education on the family, an identifiable speech and level of expectation. I wouldn’t say it’s as simple as being a class-less society- just a less definitive class system. It’s still a bit more complicated.

Also I don’t ‘feel the weight’ of class here, I’m more fascinated. For example I like hoop earrings, I’ve had commons, I don’t feel shamed or embarrassed though. It’s more observational. I don’t have a deep need to present myself in a certain way, I just like picking up on how others view it all. I know people though who would change their behaviours or dress to actively present themselves a certain way.

I think cultural choices shape class far more than income or education. If someone likes TV soaps, celebrity gossip, R2 or commercial radio hits and 'reality' TV, I tend to switch them off. Money has nothing to do with it. SIL and niece are those people. Nice enough, very kind and far from stupid but absolutely no interest in art or music or politics or books or ideas.
But that doesn't work either. I don't do soaps, I'm currently watching a subtitled drama series. I don't follow celeb gossip. If I have the radio on its likely on classic FM. I don't do reality TV series. I love the opera and classical music, the ballet and theatre. I'm a voracious reader when I have time and half my bookshelves are non fiction. I have opinions on art and music and politics. But I'm definitely not anything but WC

One other thing, it wasn’t as simple as everyone in the Soviet Union could access higher education. I have family members who were denied permission to move for example

I think we'd be classed as middle class - both with degrees and professional roles, decent combined income, will (one day) be homeowners.

We both come from dirt poor, hiding from the bailiffs, council house and free school meals backgrounds though, with parents who were cleaners/dinner ladies and builders. No family help for housing deposits or first cars, very rare or no holidays abroad. And that informs a lot of our view of the world, our experiences, and we're both very used to class code switching. How I speak around my work peers is very different to how I speak around my friends from a similar background, even though most of us are now in similarly 'upwardly mobile' (ugh) positions.

British class systems are weird. I have the accent, political outlook, and experiences of a solidly working class person. But my actual life now doesn't reflect that - and I don't know what class that makes me. If I were to have children, I would say they would be middle class, but as for me - I don't really know?

The fact that Victoria Beckhams parents dropped her off in a Bentley says it all.

Ostentatious.

Middle class would never do that.
Upper class would have a clapped out land rover

So Sleeping, if we met in person your class would be irrelevant because there would be more absorbing topics of discussion. I'd admit to being an intellectual snob, and like MissMarks above, I pigeonhole people on their SPaG.

I'd say income rather than job defines your class

What about those “working class” jobs which attract a high income? An offshore welder will earn a pretty good salary, not sure anyone would consider a welder as a middle class profession.

In days gone by you were work class if you got dirty at your job, but with the end of manufacturing and a move to the service industry that line is a little less easy to draw.

My mum grew up in a middle class family, went to private school. My dad was firmly working class. She was a SAHM until I was about 9, dad was in the army then struggled for work when he left and mum had to go to work. She worked her way up to a fairly well paying office job (in the oil industry) dad worked abroad and made a good amount of money before started his own business which was really profitable. By the time I was a teenager we would have been considered to be living a middle class lifestyle, but their jobs would still not be considered to be “professional” Neither did education beyond 16. They changed their story, they changed their destiny and by extension, changed ours.

I don’t think class is at all relevant these days. It only seems to be used as a stick to beat people, a way to put people in to a box. There are poor people, rich people and a whole lot of degrees of wealth in between. I have no idea what class I’d be considered and couldn’t actually give a crap.

@Tiramisuzie

Both my sibling and I were brought up in a single parent household on a northern estate. Our dad was a labourer. He paid for us both to go to Uni and now my sibling is worth about £10m and my own circumstances are good too. My DH is equally WC and has a top city job in London.

So, are we WC now that we have "arrived"? Thanks but no thanks. I mix with lots of MC people at my DC's school and work and I have nothing in common with them. We don't have the same upbringing. When I was climbing that ladder I was often treated like a second class citizen because of my background and accent and now that I am where I want to be doesn't mean that I want to hob nob with MC people.

We did get were we are through merit and there is no wannabe about it.

And do you find working class people accept you as one of them now you are doing well for yourself. I'm working class and found that my working class friends fell off when I went to university. I still have a few friends that I grew up with and people with similar backgrounds to me, but you tend not to fit into either class when you move 'upwards'.

@NavyFlask not everyone living there was Russian... I grew up in a neighbouring country with a cultural identity of its own. I wouldn’t for example being up the Irish Potato famine if you talked about emigrating...
It’s not as simple as history books say. You are thinking about White Russian. It’s only a tiny tiny part of the story.

I'm really confused by the hoop earrings.

Do you like them or do you wear them as a symbol?

Anyway, I grew up in a very working class family. I went to a private school, University, then did 2 post grad degrees and my interests and experiences were very different from my parents by the time I was 11 years old!

I always think my parents educated me out of my class. They were poor Tories who actively wanted to do that. I think they were quite disappointed that I became very left wing. There was a lot of friction around our political differences.

I married someone solidly middle class. So I would say that I am middle class in my lifestyle and education but not my background.