Working class wannabes in the News

[Oileo]

It’s been reported in a few papers that ‘47 per cent of those in middle-class professional and managerial occupations identify as working class’ and 24 per cent of people doing middle-class jobs whose parents also did middle class jobs identified as working class too. The gist is that it’s now cool to pretend you rose to your position/ wealth on merit- rather than pretend to be posh.

It got me wondering (again!) about the class system. When do you change class?Can you easily in a generation? I had a middle-class job, yet I don’t know how I’d reply in that survey. I still personally feel a gulf between those who grew up wealth and a middle class background. Even in my 40s I have a bigger mortgage (no inheritance), my interests often don’t match (can’t play an instrument, I don’t know many ballets or plays in conversation for example, no ‘hobbies’ or skills outside education). I feel sometimes it’s obvious networking at work or in my dress (I wear hoop earrings, a number of colleagues over the years have made snide comments as a small example, but it’s more than that in presentation of yourself).

Part the reason for my fascination with class is that I don’t really fit as an immigrant. My parents were a cleaner and a security guard, but I/ they had access to a good education and the Soviet Union was a system that simply can’t be applied here. I have certainly earned here on merit money wise, but have also had better educational opportunities that many British working class. So I don’t really fit.

So
Yabu- your job defines your class
Yanbu-class is far more complex, and somebody may identify as working class if those are their roots.

I don't think your job/income defines your class. I've got what's considered a MC job and earn well but I'm working class.

My son is probably middle class. Two degree educated parents in white collar jobs. But that doesn't move me from
WC to MC and not would I want it to.

I do feel out of place sometimes in my role as most of my colleagues are very middle class indeed. In some ways I fit in but in others I'm a bit of a curiosity.

Yes- I find it interesting that houses and cars are somehow seemed as indicators of class. It is more complicated than that. For example- where I live now there is village close by with lots of nice new houses- however it is still seen as very much a working class area and the people who have bought the nice build houses (which are beautifully decorated) are working class people who earn good wages. Lots of lorry drivers, tradesmen, police, hair dressers.

Yy @MissMarks

Equally, my very WC brother in law (owns a building company) always buys expensive but footballer-ish cars and can't help but tell you their worth.

Lots of MC/UC are driving round in old bangers or filthy Land rovers (tends to be the UC with the latter).

It doesn't just come down to whether you have an expensive car or not. Quite the contrary.

God we're stupidly complex.

I have always struggled with the class situation.
Our income is more middle class but I wouldn’t say my job tittle was very middle class or my lifestyle.

Traditional middle class- low key and practical, working class done good- bling and flash and everything brand new.

What is this class obsession? Who actually cares? Playing an instrument has FA to do with class anyway my East end family all played instruments still do taught by grandparents you can love ballet and culture and still be what you might deem as working class I have relatives in the Royal ballet (scholarships) but their dad worked in a factory why do u deem such things to be class related load of rubbish

I earn over 40k and I am definitely working class!

@MissMarks Very true.

I think squeezing people into boxes based on hobbies etc. is somewhat ridiculous.

Between me and my two siblings we did: speech and drama, swimming, ballet, scouts, karate, bowling, dance, piano, guitar, art, basketball, gymnastics and possibly some others I can't remember.

We had foreign holidays, were brought to the theatre, museums, restaurants. We all went to university, work/have worked in the "professions", have traveled all over the world, blah blah blah.

Our parents owned their own home but it was a tiny terrace in one of the most deprived areas in the region. Both left school at 13 with no qualifications and worked in unskilled jobs for little over minimum wage. If you met me today, knew nothing of my background and were knob enough to care about these things, you would place me firmly in the middle class bracket (thanks to the aforementioned speech and drama classes my accent doesn't give me away )

Class and class markers are really not as neat and tidy as some people like to convey. It's all nonsense.

We don’t feel the need to show people how well we’re doing, seems the more comfortable we’ve become the quieter we’ve got on SM.

Isn't driving a new Audi doing that for you?

I was first in family to go to uni. Two degree,1PG,professional career
Grew up in overcrowded council house in area that’s still classed deprived
I feel an affinity with and an understanding of wc people.Given I grew up immersed in it, and whilst I moved away from the schemes my family didn’t. However, no I couldn’t rock up to where I grew up and say hey!I'm just the same as all of you. I’m not by salary,by opportunity,by job security
I find middle class people can be irritating, their obsession with minutiae. Their children constantly trotting off to enforced activities, mandolin,violin,languages,sport,dance,drama that are a signal to other mc parents look how prosperous and artsy we are. My kids don’t have tutors,they don’t need them.

My experience is that it’s the middle classes that are the most problematic with a stick up their arse. Making distinction about new money and habitually banging on about manners and house prices

Actual loaded or landed folk they’re much more relaxed, have the ability to get on with you without it feeling like a competition. Naturally they know their loaded so it is just out there.

If your parents didn’t go to university (generally- obviously doesn’t apply to the upper classes) you are born working class.

This ignores the massive expansion of universities in the last few decades. In my young days there were plenty of jobs which did not require a university education but which were considered middle class at the time. Bank managers, for instance, headteacher of a primary school, many business jobs. Are we to say that those people were wrong to describe themselves or others as middle-class because if they had been young today they would have gone through a different educational route?

My greatgrandparents on one side and my grandparents (again on one side), as well as dh's parents and grandparents (on both sides) lived entirely bourgeois lifestyles, as teachers, actors, a high-class chef, a boarding-house keeper, a police superintendent etc. They owned property, they gave 3-course dinner parties with shiny white tablecloths and silver cutlery, going far enough back some of them had servants, they did charity work to improve the lives of working class children.

University was not a defining part of their world order. And that persisted for quite a long time.

University was not a defining part of their world order. And that persisted for quite a long time

I wish that was still the case. I begged my children not to go to university as neither were particularly interested in academic work and their grades weren’t good enough to go to a top uni.
What a waste of time and money.

I used work for a blue collar company in Essex. Staff there used to earn around £55K and there were some couples too so that's a joint income of £110k. Many were from Cockney families but moved to Essex in later life. They loved their expensive cars, flash homes with massive gardens etc and some of them had DCs in private school or at RG unis. There is no way anyone would call them MC neither would they identify as MC. It would be laughable.

It's not about salary/ income.
Why is there ALWAYS a thread about this?! 🤷‍♀️

It's complex, I have never fit into a single class, I was raised with one very middle class parent and one very working class parent. I live in an area with very high deprivation and very high wealth in close proximity, and through my work have definitely observed the effects of class, however, I think there are a lot of people like myself who don't fit in to a single class and this is where the social research is flawed.

However, despite this, I absolutely think there are true middle class people who like to claim they have working class roots absolutely.

I’m adept at code switching I had to be, because of inherent prejudice toward working classes. To get along and progress yes my accent has changed but back with family and where I’m from I switch straight back

@corythatwas

If your parents didn’t go to university (generally- obviously doesn’t apply to the upper classes) you are born working class.

This ignores the massive expansion of universities in the last few decades. In my young days there were plenty of jobs which did not require a university education but which were considered middle class at the time. Bank managers, for instance, headteacher of a primary school, many business jobs. Are we to say that those people were wrong to describe themselves or others as middle-class because if they had been young today they would have gone through a different educational route?

My greatgrandparents on one side and my grandparents (again on one side), as well as dh's parents and grandparents (on both sides) lived entirely bourgeois lifestyles, as teachers, actors, a high-class chef, a boarding-house keeper, a police superintendent etc. They owned property, they gave 3-course dinner parties with shiny white tablecloths and silver cutlery, going far enough back some of them had servants, they did charity work to improve the lives of working class children.

University was not a defining part of their world order. And that persisted for quite a long time.

Everyone I know in my age bracket who went to uni did subjects like Art, Media and English. We didn’t have good a’ levels (c -d) and weren’t academic, it was just something that schools really pushed as the normal route. My parents were really surprised I even did a’ levels as my GCSEs were average and I wasn’t motivated. They assumed I’d leave school at 16 and get a job like they did. I was the first in my family to go and no one was proud or pleased really, everyone thought it was pointless. I remember my Nana saying ‘such a shame you have to go to university, is it because you can’t get a job in Sainsbury’s?’

Everyone I know either ended up in a job they could have easily done without a degree (general administration, bin man, scrap dealer etc) or became a teacher because they didn’t know what else to do (none had any kind of passion for education or inspiring children).

I eventually got a job placing graduates in their first roles and honestly none would have needed their degrees. All these kids with 3rds in business studies. They thought they were going to be the next apprentice, but ended up as filing clerks in gps surgeries in SE London for £13k a year in 2011. Quite why a degree was specified as necessary I never knew.

My first job after uni I was one of 4 administrators, 3 of us just by chance had been to uni (it wasn’t in the job requirements) when the 4th person left they changed the job spec as they felt the 3 of us had raised the minimum requirements. I felt really irritated by this.

I don’t think uni is quite the class indicator it used to be.

@Smiledwiththerisingsun

It's not about salary/ income. Why is there ALWAYS a thread about this?! 🤷‍♀️

It seems to be a perennial mumsnet obsession!

Uni participation rate in 50s was

To get along and progress yes my accent has changed but back with family and where I’m from I switch straight back

Same with my mum

Even my voice changes depending on who I’m talking to and my temper/mood

You are born into your class.

Aristocracy who come into very hard times don’t suddenly become working class any more than David Beckham would become “upper class” just because he has a few quid.

Did your parents go to university and have a private pension? No? You’re probably still working class no matter how rich you are now.

I think of myself as working class. Grew up in a mill town, Grandparents all mill workers. My Dad however went to University and was in a profession, private pension. My Mum worked as a PA for a good company so another private pension. I still have a strong accent from said mill town but can water it down if needed but only do this when working out of my local area and my dialect isn’t understood. I work in a profession, have a degree, DH has 2 degrees and is in a managerial position. DH’s parents were both mill workers. Our hobbies are playing music, tennis, visiting galleries etc. I don’t think class is so set with what hobbies you do, what job you do, how educated you are now.

My profession is nursing btw