Working class wannabes in the News

[Oileo]

It’s been reported in a few papers that ‘47 per cent of those in middle-class professional and managerial occupations identify as working class’ and 24 per cent of people doing middle-class jobs whose parents also did middle class jobs identified as working class too. The gist is that it’s now cool to pretend you rose to your position/ wealth on merit- rather than pretend to be posh.

It got me wondering (again!) about the class system. When do you change class?Can you easily in a generation? I had a middle-class job, yet I don’t know how I’d reply in that survey. I still personally feel a gulf between those who grew up wealth and a middle class background. Even in my 40s I have a bigger mortgage (no inheritance), my interests often don’t match (can’t play an instrument, I don’t know many ballets or plays in conversation for example, no ‘hobbies’ or skills outside education). I feel sometimes it’s obvious networking at work or in my dress (I wear hoop earrings, a number of colleagues over the years have made snide comments as a small example, but it’s more than that in presentation of yourself).

Part the reason for my fascination with class is that I don’t really fit as an immigrant. My parents were a cleaner and a security guard, but I/ they had access to a good education and the Soviet Union was a system that simply can’t be applied here. I have certainly earned here on merit money wise, but have also had better educational opportunities that many British working class. So I don’t really fit.

So
Yabu- your job defines your class
Yanbu-class is far more complex, and somebody may identify as working class if those are their roots.

He probably thought I was a total snob but I was just trying to make conversation and figured that was basic info like ‘what do you do?’ and ‘where are you from? But there's the rub - only in the UK would an opening introduction to someone be about what you do and where you come from. It's a way of finding out whether you think a person is worth the bother or not. It's quite rude if you think about it

Middle income does not equate to middle class,would anyone here actually suggest that Paddy the traveler from big brother is middle class? I doubt it,but he probably has a bigger income than most people on here!

I think the OP is absolutely ridiculous. If your are born and raised working class then that is how you stay no matter what you earn or achieve.

I just don't agree with this. The definition of class in the Marxist sense it defined by your relation to the means of production (ie are you an owner of capital or are you someone who is used by the owners to generate more capital).

The British class system layers on a degree of complexity because of the bullshit preoccupation with things like accents, degrees, education etc. And these are sources of read discrimination for people with working class roots. But fundamentally this is window dressing: your position in the class system is related to your relation to capital.

If you significantly change your relation to capital you change class. If you are one of the lucky people who goes from a working class background to being the owner of a change of shops you are no longer working class. You may have the accent, the education, the trappings etc. You may feel insecure around people who are born into it. But the bottom line is you are no longer working class.

TBH I think the phrase "working class" is less useful these days anyway because it is associated with the days when most people worked in heavy industry or domestic service. These days far fewer people do this, the equivalent is more likely to be a call centre job or something which is relatively low pay and low status but its not the same as working in a pit.

Also the middle class is a huge and ill-defined area.

There are definitely people who are born without the access to the privileges and social connections which traditionally middle class families had and its definitely harder for them to "climb" socially than for people who have had the right education etc. But its misleading to say anyone whose parents worked in a manual/blue collar job is automatically a member of the working class for life.

I think snobbery is not exclusive to any class.

A big part of class definition has to be about how you want to define yourself though, isn’t it? There are really good examples here of people who have hobbies/interests that are seen as m/c (art/astronomy) when those things in themselves are neutral - making a living from them is different and requires resources/money/education that were traditionally defined as m/c so I think if you accessed these things at some point you are m/c. It was being able they that access that defined class.

It is also a sociological construct designed to make some analysis easier but has developed a much greater significance over time here due to the associations surrounding class - working class= negative with connotations of unemployed/layabout when that was as far removed from the working class reality of working incredibly hard, often in damaging physical work/frugal living just to function and limited time and crucially headspace for social mobility/leisure activities, etc up until recently.

I think we have really demonised the w/c in an attempt by New Labour to see everyone as m/c and it has created a veneer that can be used to hide real division and inequality. Not the kind usually talked about such as North vs South but instead w/c in the South/higher cost areas, etc.

I’m thought of (by my Boss) as distinctly upper middle class, just because of my pronunciation, enunciation and correct use of grammar! He thinks I speak like the Queen (I really don’t, but he’s from oop North).
That being said, both of my parents grew up in council houses in the East End of London, and neither of them or their parents or siblings ever spoke in a London accent...
I would classify myself as lower middle class, as the household income is nearer the lower end of the “middle class spectrum” of earnings, which, last time I checked, was something like £50,000 p.a to £500,000 p.a. - so quite a range!

I’ve always felt weird about class. Parents aren’t British anyway, so we never really neatly fitted in to the weird British class system. One was from what you’d call a lower middle class family I suppose, but went to Cambridge (from a state school) and was an academic . The other comes from a poor, rural background and was a labourer. I grew up in inner London, state educated, not much money, but lots of books and cultural stuff around me. Went to university and am a teacher. DH is also university educated and a successful business owner, but from a poor, immigrant background.

We own our own home and have decent careers, so I suppose that makes us middle class?

It’s all subjective. I personally don’t give a fig.

@OlympicProcrastinator

Money and education defines your class

No way. I will always be working class. I obtained my degree and post graduate qualification later in life and it doesn’t matter if I win the lottery I’ll always be working class. It’s a culture, the terms I use, the way I speak, the understanding between other people, traditions etc. I’m not explaining it well but when you know, you know.

It’s also specifically regional. All of the above are specific to the working class from my area.

Absolutely all of the above.

Many 'celebs' are definitely WC. Even with multi millions in the bank.
It's not about how much money you have.

It's about lifestyle and choices.

I guess it is also only an issue if you feel it is a barrier to something you want to to be part of.

I find this really interesting.... I was the first person in my extended family (both sides) to go to University, although my mother had gone to College (nursing college), and both my parents had what are considered professional jobs. My father grew up in care, and did well for himself through an apprenticeship, got a trade, went to night school, etc., to work up to a management role in what is now a degree entry profession.

My siblings and I all have professional jobs (social worker, accountant, University prof services), own our own modest homes, and earn above the national average. However, we have inherited/will inherit a small amount, due to parents savings (as long as no care home is needed!) We grew up in a Council house, which our parents bought in the 1980s, and did always have a holiday (usually camping, but we did go away).

I find myself swithering as to what class I am, but would say I have a working class background, and have been supported to access education throughout my life (I have a PhD), which has meant I am now comfortable.

I am fascinated at all these regular MNers that are from former CCCP countries that are interested in class. Did you not learn history from pre-1917 in school?
Eh, we did learn history pre-1917 in schools, but that was more than a century ago, and has been washed away by oceans of blood since... it is like accusing a modern day British person of not being very hands-on with concepts of dickensian poverty, baby farming and 50% infant mortality.

I think class is complex and isn't just about income.. it's more like identity.

My mum would def identify as working class, even though she now owns her own home.
She was brought up in a working class immigrant household with 10 kids (my nan was a housewife, gdad a builder). Most of my uncles and cousins are tradesmen but have made good money that way, own their houses.

I identify as something inbetween, because of my education, job and the fact I now own a house in London, but I wasn't brought up middle class and some of my v firmly middle class friends I've met as an adult have childhood experiences and home lives I don't recognise or relate to (i.e private education, holidays abroad, posh country/village life, parents doing certain jobs and a fair amount of nepotism due to parent's positions).

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

He probably thought I was a total snob but I was just trying to make conversation and figured that was basic info like ‘what do you do?’ and ‘where are you from? But there's the rub - only in the UK would an opening introduction to someone be about what you do and where you come from. It's a way of finding out whether you think a person is worth the bother or not. It's quite rude if you think about it

I suppose so - but I can’t think of any ways of getting to know someone that aren’t riddled with class indicators! Even just asking about someone’s interests/hobbies etc.

No way. No matter what job you do or how much you earn - you stay the class you were born.

You could be born on a council estate and become a lecturer or an investment banker - you'll still be working class.

You could have parents who were lawyers and then go on to move to a council estate and become a hairdresser - you'll still be middle class.

Assuming most of us here aren't upper class: if you married a man who was an artistocrat and ended up living in a mansion, or if an estranged relative you had no idea about died and left you an estate complete with stately homes - would you suddenly become upper class? No. Because the habits and subconscious reflexes of that world are not ingrained in you.

Your children can move class though: if you're working class and become a surgeon, you'll stay working class, but your kids will be middle class.

Its not about the money you have now, its about what money and opportunities you had growing up and how they (or the lack of them) instinctively shaped your habits and reactions to the world.

Haven’t RTFT, sorry.

FIL says he’s working class, because he had to work. Bought first house in the mid 1960’s, then a new build in ‘73. A four bed detached house in Kent, close to London because he was a solicitor in a major law firm in the City.

When he retired his private pension was so much that he paid half to MIL to reduce the tax and now complains that he gets only about £6 per week for his state pension.

But he’s working class.

While looking down his nose at anyone who doesn’t have a professional role, especially when he was the Head of the board of governors at the local grammar school.

@FriendlyDolphin

No way. No matter what job you do or how much you earn - you stay the class you were born.

You could be born on a council estate and become a lecturer or an investment banker - you'll still be working class.

You could have parents who were lawyers and then go on to move to a council estate and become a hairdresser - you'll still be middle class.

Assuming most of us here aren't upper class: if you married a man who was an artistocrat and ended up living in a mansion, or if an estranged relative you had no idea about died and left you an estate complete with stately homes - would you suddenly become upper class? No. Because the habits and subconscious reflexes of that world are not ingrained in you.

Your children can move class though: if you're working class and become a surgeon, you'll stay working class, but your kids will be middle class.

As a foreigner this is what I find most confusing, that someone could never move class themselves.

But I accept it's an ingrained cultural thing here.

It was interesting to hear on Radio 4 (MC) that those who are middle class and identify as working class may want to do so because they want to be seen as getting to where they are on their own merits and not because they have some sort of priviledge of upbringing.

Eh? Radio 4 is MC? Am I not supposed to listen to it, being WC?

There is a thing with public sector organisations looking at social mobility where where the definition has some of the bits below:
at the age of 14 were either of your parents / guardians:

• working in a professional role (Doctor, clerk, civil servant, accountant, teacher, engineer, solicitor, manager) or a manual / junior role (builder, plumber, mechanic retail sales, cleaner etc)

• had a university degree

I can't remember the exact terms and list of jobs though. 14 is chosen as an arbitrary age so there is a consistent data point (allows for some progression in careers, but also some parents would have retired or happened to be out of work at that age).

So education and profession are looked at. Arguably a proxy for 'money' and 'class' and has some statistical exceptions, but as a general measure it is ok.
I think this approach will break soon though due to the numbers of university attendees 20 years ago, and the job definition is quite tricky.

Both my sibling and I were brought up in a single parent household on a northern estate. Our dad was a labourer. He paid for us both to go to Uni and now my sibling is worth about £10m and my own circumstances are good too. My DH is equally WC and has a top city job in London.

So, are we WC now that we have "arrived"? Thanks but no thanks. I mix with lots of MC people at my DC's school and work and I have nothing in common with them. We don't have the same upbringing. When I was climbing that ladder I was often treated like a second class citizen because of my background and accent and now that I am where I want to be doesn't mean that I want to hob nob with MC people.

We did get were we are through merit and there is no wannabe about it.

Class isn't about money. It's about your family background and culture.

Winning the lottery doesn't suddenly make you a higher class and similarly, someone from an aristocratic background who decides to give up their lifestyle and live a frugal life in a manual job doen't become working class.

It is possible overtime for families to change their class, but it takes a few generations. If a child whose parents are traditional working class such as a cleaner and factory worker manages to go to Oxford and become a Barrister, it doesn't mean they lose their working class roots or will automatically feel that they are now middle class.

As for the upper classes, I'm not sure anyone who wasn't born upperclass can become it- it's heritage based.

Surely the point is that we can no longer split in WC, MU, UC unless we're talking really broad spectrum with overlapping Venn circles.

On 2 April 2013 analysis of the results of a survey,[30] which was conducted by the BBC in 2011 and developed in collaboration with academic experts, was published online in the journal Sociology.[31][32][33][34][35] The results released were based on a survey of 160,000 residents of the United Kingdom most of whom lived in England and described themselves as "white." Class was defined and measured according to the amount and kind of economic, cultural, and social resources, "capitals", reported. Economic capital was defined as income and assets; cultural capital as amount and type of cultural interests and activities, and social capital as the quantity and social status of their friends, family and personal and business contacts.[34] This theoretical framework was inspired by that of Pierre Bourdieu, who published his theory of social distinction in 1979.
This seems much more realistic.

I like the opera and ballet and basically any kind of theatre, we watch drama series with subtitles, I have a degree, we're both voracious readers of non fiction as well as fiction, I've done a reasonable amount of travelling abroad, if o have the radio on its likely to be Classic FM. That isn't typically WC but I'm certainly not MC

If you are still feeling deeply anguished at where you stand in the class food chain, this simple guide makes it easy for you.

If you grew up using the words "toilet, serviette, pardon, settee, front room, lounge, nana, grandad, ", you are dyed in the wool WC.

If you used to use the above words but now use 'napkin, loo', etc you are aspiring MC. To the bred in the bone MC, this is much much more heinous than being WC

The class structure has changed over time.

Historically, upper class related mainly to nobility etc.

At one time, middle class related to highly educated people, such as barristers, doctors, lawyers, etc., or rich people, such as officers in the forces who bought their way in, rather than worked up through the ranks. This morphed into a degree/professional roles in the mid 20th century, so started to incorporated lesser "professions", such as bank managers, accountants, etc.

Nowadays, with huge numbers of people getting degrees, it's inevitable that the dividing line between working class and middle class needs to move upwards, as lots of people with degrees (so middle class 50 years ago), are now doing lower level work, as degrees are now a requirement for lots of previously "working class" jobs,

So, as the make up society changes, so does the dividing lines.